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UFOPedia for everone :)

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by xracer, Aug 3, 2014.

  1. xracer

    xracer Registered

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    I found this website a few days ago, it replicates the feel of the ufopedia of EU, TFTD and Apocalypse in html, very nicely done. Figure i should share it.

    edit:
    minor and insignificant details :p
    http://ufopedia.csignal.org/
     
  2. pmprog

    pmprog Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator

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    There's no link :)
     
  3. xracer

    xracer Registered

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  4. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I find myself fishing through the forum quite often looking for this topic because I need the link and I can't bookmark it (not my computer). So I am bumping it for me and everyone else who wants access to that link.

    Can we get a sticky on this already?
     
  5. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    There are a lot of info about unused items and facilities...nice
    They explain the psi grenade, force web...even the dimension Destabilizer (an improved version of the devastator rifle), and show some facilities like Cells and an Advanced alien containment room.
    And a Alien building research named One Way To Win :eek:
     
  6. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Well we have some clue as to why certain items never made it in.

    The cells, tracker gun and multi tracker were related to the VIP feature that never made it into the game. There are no humans to capture and none to track.

    The force web sounds exactly like the stun gun. It immobilizes targets and renders them unable to move or act. You only need 1.

    The PSI defense was bugged to give permanent stats, but it wasn't quite removed from the game. That's easy enough to fix for OpenApoc, keeping it as a super rare (week 4+, 1-3'ish) and expensive item ($2-5K). With PSI buffs you might even need one.

    Why would XCOM need a superior devastator cannon? The alien one is pretty damn strong as is. It looks pretty cool at least. It's possible that humans were not meant to use alien weapons at all, so the DD and the big green gun would have replaced it.

    PSI grenades are pretty cool. Unfortunately PSI is just terrible and needs a buff. Stunning aliens is redundant against stun gas, so that could be removed. Overall the grenades would be nice to have as a rare (week 3-5+, 2-8'ish) and expensive niche item ($300'ish).

    Advanced alien containment was probably only for the overspawn. This was instead given to the player as a freebe rather than having scientists try to interrogate a 50 foot tall gorzhirra.
     
  7. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    Perhaps it would immobilize the target, but not stun them? So you could still fire etc.?

    To keep things logical, I'd like this helmet to also reduce decrease psi energy to 0 - if you want to shut yourself away from psionics, then it should go both ways.

    It wouldn't be that much of a problem if the cannon sucked in other departments, like being really heavy, slow-firing or whatever. Not that I desperately want it in the game, but I think it'd be interesting to go up against.

    Yep.

    Sadly. :p
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Uh. You can still shoot things on the ground and kill them. Try it some time. The force web is 95% identical to the function of the stun grapple, it just didn't deal stun damage.

    Letting aliens shoot back is kinda meh. If you can strike them with a force web, you can strike them with a bullet. Every alien type that you NEED to immobilize is easy enough to directly kill, and every type that you DON'T need to immobilize only becomes more dangerous because they switch to 100% shooting back.

    Perhaps that could be changed by turning the force web into more of a trap card? Deploy little spots on the ground that capture aliens who run over them. It might be good against dumb runners like suckers and poppers. Capturing poppers is SUPER difficult in real time mode so this would be a cool thing. Smarter aliens could avoid them or perhaps be too big to capture this way.

    Why zero energy? That's a bit harsh. Increase the defense, but lower the offense. EZPZ. Hybrids who wish to use their attacks can turn the defense off, but then again hybrids already have excellent defense so they don't need this item. It's always been more of a human thing. Making the item heavier will also keep it out of feeble hybrid hands.

    Not with the beta stats they didn't! The dimension destabilizer sacrificed a small amount of damage to get three times the fire rate. And you thought toxiguns were a cheat. ;)

    Apocalypse would be a far different if humans couldn't use alien weapons at all. The two rejected guns seemed to point in a direction where XCOM had to research alien tech, throw away the alien guns, and then build new guns of its own. That's not completely out of the question here because Apoc has really damn good starting tech. Everything the city gives is more than capable of fighting the aliens all game long. There is no real rush to throw away your starting pistol like in UFO/TFTD, so there's plenty of time to research and build replacements.
     
  9. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    Sigh. I meant that the affected unit can fire, not that it can be fired upon!

    Sorry but it's not a valid argument, as it logically means that only one weapon is needed in the game. :p

    Not if the web has good area damage. Sure, high-explosives have the same thing, but they have their quirks like indiscriminate destruction, relatively modest blast size (AC bullets) or slow firing (launchers). On the other hand, they're much more versatile than this hypothetical force web, able to deal with pretty much anything.

    That is true. But well, that's a matter of your tactics.

    I'm all for more toys, since there's only so much you can do with firearms. Successful deployment would be hard though, unless we're talking UFO entrance. (How do aliens deal with mines they can't avoid anyway? I can't really make a conclusive observation.)

    It's not easy, but perfectly doable with dual-wielded stun launchers.

    Yeah, it's a bit more complex model of the same thing. I wanted to keep it more simple, assuming the barrier is absolute (in game scales), but we can go either way.

    I am generally against preventing X-Com from using (researched) alien weapons, since operating them clearly requires only opposable thumbs (which we have), visual capability (which we have) and possibly overcoming some sort of safety measures (which we can hack away with a saw in the workshop). Since Apocalypse uses organic tech, we could pull it off this time, but it would require some good, serious explanation.

    Nevertheless, I believe giving the aliens more (beam) weapon types would not be superfluous. There is more we can do here.
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    In this case the force web trap is a downgrade to conventional arms. It doubles the effort needed to down an alien because not only does the web have to connect, but it didn't deal any damage so now you have to use regular fire to take it down. Better off scoring a kill in the first place.

    The UFOPaedia entry says the target is unable to use equipment while trapped in the web. This effect is no different from being knocked out.

    Ehhh. Anything? The weapon has 80 power, not 9000! There's no reason it should be expected to handle anything larger than a human sized target. It's made for megaprimus, not the alien dimension.

    Shoot them. Explode them. Wait in cover. Plenty of options here. I don't think ground objects can be hit with AP rounds, but like the brainsucker launcher the forceweb could launch an actual unit to accomplish its trap role. Just some immobile thing that goes poof like a popper when anything gets close. All the mechanics already exist in vanilla.

    Energy is super slow to recover. Knocking it to 0 means you can't use the psi amp for the entire mission. That's no good! Lowering the attack rating makes it less punishing for hybrids, but they have little reason to use the psi shield as is.

    True enough. A trap is less risky to your guys so it would be more viable and give some real protection against brainsucker ambushes. As a direct weapon I don't see the forceweb having any real use. Stun grapples work great, and shooting things until they die works great. The middle ground only serves to be mediocre at both. Apoc has limited trap options and they're all lethal, so there is some good potential here.
     
  11. Jos

    Jos Registered

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    @Bobucles: I like the realistic thinking thinking behind most of your posts but I have to say they also sound overly combative and pushy to me - why don't you try to be a little more constructive?
     
  12. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    But I can see some uses for this. Primarily to pin a fast target and then use stun gas on them.
    Anyway, it's hard for a designer to predict everything players will come up with, unless the system is really simple. Which is boring.

    Well, that sucks and wouldn't make any sense. If the weapon was introduced, it shouldn't prevent from using equipment.

    Yes, anything in the sense that an explosion will always deal some damage. ::) While this web thing would only be effective in certain cases.

    I've been asking what the AI does, not what it can do. There's a difference, don't you think?

    Yep, I agree. I just don't want to go further into details before learning how exactly psi rolls work.
     
  13. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Well that's the thing. If you can shoot a fast moving target at range, then you can definitely shoot it point blank with a dozen stun grapples. If you can shoot a fast moving target at range, then you can also kill it. Seeking missiles and proximity mines let agents destroy fast targets very easily.

    PSI amps also compete for the force web role. They let you stun or MC aliens at range, and can do so without the accuracy issues of force webbing a fast moving target.

    Flying armor makes poppers much easier to capture because you can hide away on a ledge to stun them.

    Basically, you are describing a rare situation that can already be accomplished by simpler, more reliable, or more clever means. The beta Forceweb clearly never made it in game because it was redundant. There's no point to wasting dev hours on redundancy.

    Well I don't know. The AI has never had to deal with a trap card before. If the forceweb launches a trap-like unit, then the aliens will shoot at it just like any other target. Poppers, hyperworms and brainsuckers will run directly TO the trap, getting trapped. The AI would have to be changed so that aliens don't focus all their fire or ignore agents to run head first into one.

    The Forceweb might be uniquely useful if it ends up being a deployable trap. It wouldn't be anything XCOM needs, but it could help a few situations like keeping civilians away from battle.

    Ooh. What if the forceweb protected units caught inside its bubble? Now you have the ability to lock down civilians and shield them against stray cross fire. It might even keep brainsuckers out(or in!). There are some cool defensive uses here.
    Do you mean the formulas? I don't know what they are. I do know that every ability consumes energy, probe always has a minimum 20% chance, and real time consumes energy as upkeep. Turn based mind control will empty your energy supply to give 1TU per energy, up to the alien's max TUs. Energy is recovered at 1 energy per second (11/turn), but you need at least 50 energy to do serious stuff so it burns out very fast.

    Chance to hit is based on the attack rating vs. the defense rating. 100 defense is "perfect defense", representing the perfect defense of a mindless creature. Many Apoc aliens have 100 defense, which sucks because in addition to MC immunity they're a PITA to probe or stun.
     
  14. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    So what? Frankly, I don't really understand why redundancy would be a reason to not include something. Or rather I do: it's the minimalistic approach approach to game design that sometimes passes for elegance. I definitely prefer the opposite school, strongly present for example in Eastern Europe, which prefers a fuckton of elements - they only need to be balanced against each other.
    "This can be achieved with other means" is no ground for removing an item, especially if it works in a unique way. Otherwise, like I said, you get to the extreme case of "one weapon fits all".

    Now, this is pure extremism. I mean I agree redundancy is bad, but a redundant weapon is something which has similar profile to what already is in the game (and sometimes small variations can make a big difference). This is clearly not the case here.

    But there are already mines in the game, no? Is there a fundamental difference between them and the trap we're discussing?

    It could be fun, though it is really jRPG-like. :p (Playing in real time, I'd probably use it on my exposed agents.)
     
  15. xracer

    xracer Registered

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    Sorry for bringing this thread up, but it took me a while to find it.
    Can we get a sticky please.

    Thank you
     

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