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High Priority Task: Relationships with Orgs

Discussion in 'Data' started by Istrebitel, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    AFAIK, weapon range and projectile TTL are different values. You can hack a certain weapon to rapidly fire slow moving quickly dying projectiles, while being long range. This would allow you to fire at a building without hitting it.
     
  2. Yataka Shimaoka

    Yataka Shimaoka Active Member Tester Translator/Writer
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    So,the shot that ideally devastate the structure of the owning organization, only cause a small relations penalty for them to be annoyed ? While the non-damaging volley of bullets hits them and they were extremely angry? I was wondering what formula is being used both in battlescape and cityscape? I am just new here and pretty much I don't understand the advance mathematics.
     
  3. darkestaxe

    darkestaxe Registered
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    I think this whole aspect of the game should just be redone. It never made sense at all and I think the wonky nonsense with orgs loving or hating X-COM and/or Aliens with no rhyme or reason contributed to the common attitude that Apocalypse was just to buggy to play.

    It's frustrating when this or that org hates you and you can't figure out why, or you put targeting units in your craft and they keep missing and you can't figure out why, or your squad fits more gear in a passenger hovercar then a biotrans and you can't figure out why.

    They never actually finished programming apoc so why not implement something they might have done if they had finished. Blame aliens for damage they cause, hold x-com to some account for raiding and stunning, alien hating orgs give x-com extra credit for removing aliens from their buildings, treat accidental damage and intentional damage differently, etc. And what morons stack all their craft on top of each other in the same parking space when you have a whole garage?
     
  4. Yataka Shimaoka

    Yataka Shimaoka Active Member Tester Translator/Writer
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    Yeah, that kinda sucks like the cargo module can hold 50 items yet after a mission when you check the craft's equipment (not yet in base) it says like it holds 1000 items instead of original cap that is 50. This also occurs to the bio trans module
     
  5. The Think Tank

    The Think Tank Active Member Researcher
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    I disagree, to an extent. I think that if there is a desire to re-program the AI, that should be reserved for a mod. Personally, I enjoyed having my reckless abandonment for cityscape destruction feel like they had actual consequences, really adding to the feeling of a living city. It emphasized the point, at least to me, that this city was still trying to go about daily business, and that, at the end of the day, these companies are trying to make a profit. Destroy a building of their's and they will get pissed off, regardless of what alien-fighting you are doing.
     
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  6. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    Okay, let's finish this research and implement it. I've read through the pages. Please correct me if I missed something, but this is what we found out:

    List of actions and what effect they have on relationship towards org that took action
    1) Each bullet hit on property in city : -5
    2) Hit on unit in tactical: 0
    3) Kill tactical unit: -30 if not hostile to / - 5 if hostile to , -5 (allies of unit's org), +2 (enemies of unit's org)

    Things yet to determine:
    1) How does hit on property in city also affect allies/enemies's relationship to attacker?
    2) How does destruction of property in battle affect relationships? Does this also affect allies/enemies relationship to attacker?
    3) Effects of hitting vehicles
    4) Effects of killing vehicles
    5) Effects of killing civilians
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2017
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  7. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    I'll go ahead and work on problem number one. Welcome back, by the way!
     
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  8. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    Done some cursory work, I've thus far determined the following:
    In a new game, xcom->superdyn relationship starts at 0. But the moment you destroy a tile, it immediately drops to -1. However, destroying tiles isn't 1 to 1: destroying 2 tiles still only has that be -1. In addition, so far, for destroying up to 16 tiles, the superdyn->xcom value has remained static at its initial value of -1, and xcom->superdyn hasn't fallen below -1 either. I need to test further with larger numbers of tiles.
     
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  9. Yataka Shimaoka

    Yataka Shimaoka Active Member Tester Translator/Writer
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    I've tested killing civilians of the government, and no relation penalty has occurred. It seems like civilians are treated as another faction in-game, as also what apoc'd has to say. And I did some battlescape bombing, no penalty acquired
     
  10. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    By bombing you mean you leveled some battlescape structures to the ground? Did the owning org not drop relation to you for that?
     
  11. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    Actually I have determined sufficient destruction will drop the owning orgs relationship with you. I just need to pin exact numbers to it. And yes, I have managed to get the superdyn->xcom value below -1.
     
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  12. Yataka Shimaoka

    Yataka Shimaoka Active Member Tester Translator/Writer
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    You mean high level of destruction to the building?
     
  13. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    Yes. Mere discharge of weapons and use of items has no effect on your relation on its own.
     
  14. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    Okay, need further testing on this. I thought this would be simple and logical system but it's bonkers.

    I did two tests myself.

    1) Manual fire on city's tubes or roads. Hit connected like 10 times. A huge part of road collapsed. Results? Nothing! NOTHING! No change! Everything remained the same.

    2) Fought first wave of ufo's since game start. Replayed battle multiple time. Same results!

    Initial relationship: 75 Govt/Megapol, -30 Sirius, 0 others

    After 1st Ufo Scout shot down:
    63 Govt,
    68 Megapol,
    -80 Sirius,
    -2 Nutrivevnd
    +13 SELF
    +2 Mutant Alliance
    -12 to -20 all other orgs

    After 2nd Ufo Scout shot down (relative to previous):
    Government +3
    Megapol +3
    Self +1
    SuperDynamics -1
    Solmine -1
    Sensovision -1
    Sanctuary -1
    Nanotech -1
    Energen -1
    Gravball -1
    Osiron -1
    CyberWeb -3
    Transtellar -3
    Sirius -15

    Now let's see what those orgs think of aliens?
    Government -40
    Megapol -53
    Self 12
    SuperDynamic 11
    Solmine 18
    Sensovision 13
    Sanctuary 11
    Nanotech 15
    Energen 13
    Gravball 16
    Osiron 11
    CyberWeb 20
    Transtellar 26
    Sirius 100
    And some others not in the list
    Marsec -9
    General Metro -7
    Synthmesh -4

    Conclusion:
    For destroying terrain, I think we can now confirm findings of colleagues above that destroying tubes or roads has nothing to do with Transtellar disliking us etc. Only direct hit on someone's property angers them, the owner (if you hit Government building, Government likes you less).

    I can think of one reason for what happens on first alien ship going down: this is game start and it's supposed to randomize relationships. Maybe it doesn't do that until it needs to apply a change to relationships? That's why it does it when first relationship altering action is taken?

    If we take that as granted, looking at the result of second UFO going down, we see an almost reasonable distribution.

    Those who are allied react at -15
    Those who are more than +20 towards aliens will react as -3
    Those who are more than +10 react at -1
    Those who are more than -20 react at +3
    The only oddball here is SELF who despite being +12 to aliens reacted at +1. Maybe it's a bug or something else happened along (like alien stray shot hit their building during fighting)

    Please try to experiment more and confirm or deny this.
     
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  15. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist
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    or its second randomizer =] when for ex 1 or 2 orgranization react randomly
    so that way not all will be predictable in game
     
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2017
  16. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Well-Known Member Tester Researcher
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    A tool from the vanilla days that you may all find useful for working out the default and through-game changes to organisation relations is the Midnight Editor for XCOM:Apocalypse. Often appearing as mexcomapoc. The latest version i found was 0.63 for reference. If anyone knows of any newer versions please PM me.

    In the meantime, i'll aim to get some game time in and see what happens to Organisations as i play...
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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  17. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist
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    Welcome FilmBoy84 =]
    here you go )
    http://openapoc.org/threads/guide-how-to-help-by-playing-in-x-com-3.228/
     
  18. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Well-Known Member Tester Researcher
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    Many thanks Makus, I'll try apoc'd out to see how much has changed in the last decade or so.

    My reason for using the Midnight Editor however is that it's been the same one i've used since it was released way back in 1997 and has an incredibly powerful set of tools for relations between organisations; far more powerful than Apoc'd back in the day.

    I'll check to see if Apoc'd has changed since and aim to provide data from both for you, otherwise please find attached for the Dev Team to try out themselves. (Latest version attached, Freeware, Marcin Wichary 1998)
     

    Attached Files:

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  19. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist
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    Your welcome FilmBoy84 =]
    yes sure give us pls feedback to Apoc'D in comparison wich Midnight Editor
     
  20. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Well-Known Member Tester Researcher
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    OK, an afternoon in MEXcomAp and i managed to pull out the starting relations between XCOM and the other factions and make them into a spreadsheet. Figures also check out with Apoc'd so it appears that the two editors send back the same values when reading savegames.

    Values are taken from Superhuman difficulty at the very starting second of the game. Values for other difficulties only vary the values in the spreadsheet by +/- one to fifteen points it appears.

    Please see attached spreadsheet; currently only X-COM relations to other factions are in, i'll add the relations between other factions as time allows.

    As you will see this table is HUGE and incredibly complex. Let me know your thoughts...

    **EDIT** Frustratingly, the forums wont allow me to upload as an XLS file, so ive had to make it a PDF now... Will add columns to it on next release...
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Oct 9, 2017
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