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High Priority Task: Relationships with Orgs

Discussion in 'Data' started by Istrebitel, Apr 5, 2017.

  1. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    We need to know what affects relationships. We know for sure relationships are -100 to 100 and they can be checked by looking in save files with an editor. Questions:
    • - How much do you lose for the damage you deal in Battlescape? Cityscape? Approximate formula for the calculations? Is the kind of tile/object destroyed taken into account?
    • - How much do you lose for hurting a unit/vehicle? Does it matter if you ordered an attack or shot at something else and hurt it?
    • - Do you lose something for just ordering a hostile act? For missing with a hostile attack?
    • - How does relationship change when you change it with another related org? Example: If Transltellar vs Aliens is +50 (like) and you are to lose 25 with Aliens, how much would you lose with Transtellar?
    • - Does it work in the other way (if Diablo vs Aliens is -50 and you are to lose 25 with Aliens, would you gain with Diablo?)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 5, 2017
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  2. Lord Darius

    Lord Darius Member Researcher
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    Well, that is one part in the game, what i've never understood. The Organizations works pretty weird, cause u never get money from them, only buy items in early game. Later, they are useless totally.
     
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  3. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist
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    yep but now we have other task then most effectively win :troll_23:
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  4. Lord Darius

    Lord Darius Member Researcher
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    Dat Führer meme made me laugh pretty hard :D :D :D Yeah i know, but i cant contribute to this one, i want to understand the Organizations to! :)
     
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  5. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist
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    its meme smile i add new set at forum - second tab
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2017
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  6. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    I don't know the specific formulas, but opinions are changed based directly on damage done to buildings and personnel. As long as property is not damaged and personnel are not injured/killed, relations are unaffected. This is why the stun raid exploit works for farming up equipment.
    Damage to people and property on the battlescape is always attributed to XCOM regardless of who did the damaging (learned this the hard way when an alien vortex mine collapse an entire farm and Nutrivend went hostile). This means the easy way of manipulating relations is baiting aliens to damage organizations on the cityscape with evasive craft.

    There is a slow general trend of polarizing politics based on "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". Transtellar often becomes hostile over time because they start the game with a positive outlook on the aliens and view X-COM's aggression against UFOs as an unwarranted violent attack. MarSec also hates Megapol and ends up at odds with XCOM due to the close relations. It's also important to note that the relations are one way. Aliens damaging a Transtellar space port might lower Transtellar's opinion of Aliens but Aliens regard Transtellar the same way.

    I'll see if I can observe any trends and get numbers next time I play
     
    Last edited: Apr 7, 2017
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  7. Lord Darius

    Lord Darius Member Researcher
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    Mustang is right! I've encountered the same thing! Was quite hard to be sure of it, but i think all organizations work this way.
     
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  8. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    I've done a little investigation, and here's a couple of things I found:
    Searching a place for aliens when it doesn't have any gives the receiving org a 7 point drop in their relationship with XCOM, regardless of which building it is, what their score was before, how many people you sent, etc.
    Also, as other people have pointed out, raid penalties are purely based on the damage you do. If you merely initiate a raid and leave, your reputation does not change at all with the receiving org.
     
  9. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    Curiously, in my testing I've found you can critically injure several guards and your relations will not be impacted unless someone dies

    Edit (edits are finished):
    To avoid doubleposting I'll edit this post. Today I tested pure number of guard fatalities and how they impact relations. I have a save I am going to attach where a squad of soldiers is next to 4 knocked out Cyberweb guards that can be executed via manual fire. I've found that injuring the guards does not cause the relations penalty; they must be killed for a penalty to occur. The penalties are also nonlinear. I'm not sure if there are some kind diminishing returns on the penalty for killing guards in one mission yet, but I know for a fact that individual guards themselves do not impact the score, i.e. execute any of the 4 guards and the "1 dead" case is still the same value. Terrain was also not damaged. I found that there was a plateau of relations impact, but after 5 were killed, each additional dead guard was a -5 penalty. My results, measuring Cyberweb's opinion of XCOM after guard execution, with everything past 4 being kills from continuing the battle:
    Code:
    0 dead:   8
    1 dead:  -22
    2 dead:  -52
    3 dead:  -62
    4 dead:  -62
    5 dead  -62
    6 dead  -67
    7 dead  -72
    8 dead  -77
    
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Apr 8, 2017
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  10. Samuel Roy

    Samuel Roy Member Programmer Tester Researcher
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    What happens if the receiving org has a different starting relationship with XCOM?
     
  11. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    Thanks a lot for your activity guys! This level of detail is exactly what we need! With this information we know almost all we need to implement relationships.

    Mustang, could you please also check against an allied org? I would assume 30 penalty per execution should work until you reach lower than -50 (which is when they turn Hostile) but we must be sure.

    Finally, remaining questions:
    - Confirm the formula of relationship change with other orgs when you hurt someone related to them. I guess easiest would be to set several orgs to 0 vs X-Com and -100/-75/-50/... up to 100 vs, say, Megapol,then raiding them, killing 2 guards, and seeing how those -60 apply to those other orgs.
    - Exact relationship lost for destroying city tiles or battlescape objects. Creating a "supergun" with thousands of damage using apoc'd and then killing several parts of the map should help test that.
     
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  12. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    I did another round of guard killing testing today, this time trying to cover more cases and provide more detail. I believe this may settle the impact of guard killing as a relation impact completely.

    In these tests, I attacked the Government and used Apoc'd to modify the relations of tertiary organizations to observe their change based on casualties.

    During this test I observed on the battlescape the Government troops did not begin returning fire until enough of them died for the Government to turn hostile. Despite the units appearing as hostile to me I imagine they were seeing "Allied" "Friendly" or "Neutral" units if I were to make a guess from my Apoc knowledge. Interestingly, this must be a seperate counter being used on the Battlescape because the Relations tab of the Cityscape section of the save files are unaffected until the battle is resolved. I suppose this is why the stun raid exploit is so popular, if you attack an allied organization they will never shoot back until you've killed a substantial number of them, and when stunning that is never.

    Allies of the Government consistently dropped 5 relations toward X-COM for each Government casualty, up to a minimum of -100 regardless of their opinion of X-COM. Except for 5 deaths, which for some reason did not cause a shift of opinion from 4 deaths. This is inconsistent with the second run of tests where Gov't went hostile and fired back after 5 deaths. I have no idea why the 5th death did not cause a relation ping the first time.

    Killing Government Guards (Organizations as ALLIES (100) of Government):
    Pre-Battle disposition toward X-COM:
    Government 100
    Megapol 100
    Cyberweb 75
    Evonet 50
    GravBall League 25
    Sanctuary Clinic 0
    MarSec -25
    Nanotech -50
    Nutrivend -75
    Technocrats -100

    1 dead:
    Government 70 (-30)
    Megapol 95 (-5)
    Cyberweb 70 (-5)
    Evonet 45 (-5)
    GravBall League 20 (-5)
    Sanctuary Clinic -5 (-5)
    MarSec -30 (-5)
    Nanotech -55 (-5)
    Nutrivend -80 (-5)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    2 dead:
    Government 40 (-60)
    Megapol 90 (-10)
    Cyberweb 65 (-10)
    Evonet 40 (-10)
    GravBall League 15 (-10)
    Sanctuary Clinic -10 (-10)
    MarSec -35 (-10)
    Nanotech -60 (-10)
    Nutrivend -85 (-10)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    3 dead:
    Government 10 (-90)
    Megapol 85 (-15)
    Cyberweb 60 (-15)
    Evonet 35 (-15)
    GravBall League 10 (-15)
    Sanctuary Clinic -15 (-15)
    MarSec -40 (-15)
    Nanotech -65 (-15)
    Nutrivend -90 (-15)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    4 dead:
    Government -20 (-120)
    Megapol 80 (-20)
    Cyberweb 55 (-20)
    Evonet 30 (-20)
    GravBall League 5 (-20)
    Sanctuary Clinic -20 (-20)
    MarSec -45 (-20)
    Nanotech -70 (-20)
    Nutrivend -95 (-20)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    5 dead (NO EFFECT):
    Government -20 (-120)
    Megapol 80 (-20)
    Cyberweb 55 (-20)
    Evonet 30 (-20)
    GravBall League 5 (-20)
    Sanctuary Clinic -20 (-20)
    MarSec -45 (-20)
    Nanotech -70 (-20)
    Nutrivend -95 (-20)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    6 dead:
    Government -50 (-150)
    Megapol 75 (-25)
    Cyberweb 50 (-25)
    Evonet 25 (-25)
    GravBall League 0 (-25)
    Sanctuary Clinic -25 (-25)
    MarSec -50 (-25)
    Nanotech -75 (-25)
    Nutrivend -100 (-25)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    7 dead:
    Government -55 (-155)
    Megapol 70 (-30)
    Cyberweb 45 (-30)
    Evonet 20 (-30)
    GravBall League -5 (-30)
    Sanctuary Clinic -30 (-30)
    MarSec -55 (-30)
    Nanotech -80 (-30)
    Nutrivend -100 (-25)
    Technocrats -100 (no change)

    Next I set all the organizations to HOSTILE (-100) instead of ALLIED (100) to the government. Killing the enemy of your enemy seems to be worth 2 points per guard, a stark difference to the 5 you lose for attacking their allies.
    Killing Government Guards (Organizations as ENEMIES (-100) of Government):

    Pre-Battle disposition toward X-COM:
    Government 100
    Megapol 100
    Cyberweb 75
    Evonet 50
    GravBall League 25
    Sanctuary Clinic 0
    MarSec -25
    Nanotech -50
    Nutrivend -75
    Technocrats -100

    1 dead:
    Government 70 (-30)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 77 (+2)
    Evonet 52 (+2)
    GravBall League 27 (+2)
    Sanctuary Clinic 2 (+2)
    MarSec -23 (+2)
    Nanotech -48 (+2)
    Nutrivend -73 (+2)
    Technocrats -98 (+2)

    2 dead:
    Government 40 (-60)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 79 (+4)
    Evonet 54 (+4)
    GravBall League 29 (+4)
    Sanctuary Clinic 4 (+4)
    MarSec -21 (+4)
    Nanotech -46 (+4)
    Nutrivend -71 (+4)
    Technocrats -96 (+4)

    3 dead:
    Government 10 (-90)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 81 (+6)
    Evonet 56 (+6)
    GravBall League 31 (+6)
    Sanctuary Clinic 6 (+6)
    MarSec -19 (+6)
    Nanotech -44 (+6)
    Nutrivend -69 (+6)
    Technocrats -94 (+6)

    4 dead:
    Government -20 (-120)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 83 (+8)
    Evonet 58 (+8)
    GravBall League 33 (+8)
    Sanctuary Clinic 8 (+8)
    MarSec -17 (+8)
    Nanotech -42 (+8)
    Nutrivend -67 (+8)
    Technocrats -92 (+8)

    5 dead:
    Government -50 (-150)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 85 (+10)
    Evonet 60 (+10)
    GravBall League 35 (+10)
    Sanctuary Clinic 10 (+10)
    MarSec -15 (+10)
    Nanotech -40 (+10)
    Nutrivend -65 (+10)
    Technocrats -90 (+10)

    6 dead:
    Government -55 (-155)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 87 (+12)
    Evonet 62 (+12)
    GravBall League 37 (+12)
    Sanctuary Clinic 12 (+12)
    MarSec -13 (+12)
    Nanotech -38 (+12)
    Nutrivend -63 (+12)
    Technocrats -88 (+12)

    7 dead:
    Government -60 (-160)
    Megapol 100 (no change)
    Cyberweb 89 (+14)
    Evonet 64 (+14)
    GravBall League 34 (+14)
    Sanctuary Clinic 14 (+14)
    MarSec -11 (+14)
    Nanotech -36 (+14)
    Nutrivend -61 (+14)
    Technocrats -86 (+14)

    I also confirmed that tertiary organizations that are friendly or unfriendly to either/both of the fighting organizations do not have their opinions altered by killing guards. Meaning, organizations Friendly/Neutral/Unfriendly to the two feuding factions in every possible combination are unaffected by killing guards. Tertiary organizations are only impacted if they are allied/hostile to an involved organization.

    Here is a to do list of other analysis to be done, if anyone else is taking a look at some side of organization relations let me know so we don't analyze something twice.
    TO DO:
    1. Determine impact of cityscape building damage to target organizations
    2. Determine impact of destroying vehicles of target organizations
    3. Determine impact of damaging battlescape terrain substantially of target organizations
    4. Find out if Alien/Civilian units are counted differently than guards for relation penalties
    5. What makes organizations that aren't the player raid each other? What are the consequences? What is the difference between "raiding" and "storming"?
     
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2017
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  13. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    Thank you very much.

    About the fact that guard killing has no effect on tietary orgs if they aren't allied: this is a very interesting find! Transtellar starts with a little positive attitude towards aliens. It was (as you also noticed) widely believed to be the reason why Transtellar often goes hostile and demands bribes all the time. Well that and destruction of Transtellar's property by Cityscape fighting of course. Now, either other ways of damaging relations do propagate towards non-allied tietary orgs, or this belief was false.
     
  14. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    I didn't get a chance to play today but I read through my old manual. It mentioned in a tip that if X-COM is responding to an alien alert, the organization who owns the building will not get as angry over property damage.
    Additionally, when prompted for reparations from an organization, declining to pay is another relations penalty. This adds more scenarios to confirm to the to do list
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2017
  15. The Think Tank

    The Think Tank Active Member Researcher
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    Jumping in here, what is needed to be tested? I can run some experiments and check my saves through Apoc'd.
     
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  16. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    I believe our primary goal next will be to quantify battlescape and cityscape damage vs. relations. Set and organization to your ally, friend, and neutral. Then, I would destroy one block at a time in either cityscape or battlescape and make a new save for each block destroyed. Once you've filled up your saves, open them up in Apoc'd and check how much relations were impacted per block destroyed. In the case of battlescape testing you may have to retreat from the mission and save in the cityscape.
    Damage in battlescape also has to be measured when responding to an alert
     
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  17. The Think Tank

    The Think Tank Active Member Researcher
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    I can try and tackle the Strategic portion, but it will require a lot of time and probably more than one working on it, I can provide a single set of data though. I am going to try it with Justice weapons and see how that impacts it, if it depends on the weapon attacking or actual damage first.
     
  18. The Think Tank

    The Think Tank Active Member Researcher
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    Thinking again, if we all tested the Strategic level first we could have overlapping data and be able to much quicker determine what impacts it, and seeing that the strategic level is relatively simple to test, I would suggest we start there.
     
  19. Mustang

    Mustang Megapol Agent Tester Researcher
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    Sounds good. If you do run anything let me know and I'll be sure to cover a different set of conditions
     
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  20. Istrebitel

    Istrebitel Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    The bribe formula was studied by Skin36 I believe by disassembling the code. It should be around, so there is no need to manually test that (skin36, could you please give us a link to your work?)

    On the other hand, one thing we need to test is what happens when you murder civilians. Do they count towards casualty penalty? Org relations? Anything?
     
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