1. Forum moved (you can use login and pass from old forum)
  2. Many discussions moved to the bugtracker

Suggestion Suggestions and Opinions to improve Xcom Apoc

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by Grimagor, Dec 2, 2014.

  1. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Hello,

    First of all, apologies for my english :-[

    I really LOVE X-com series and this game is one of the best of all. But unfortunatelly it has a lot of problems/bugs IMO, there is a list of "problems" and another list of suggestions.
    Problems:

    - Path-lines: When playing in turns it's very annoying the routes agents take, specially when they have MarSec Chest armor: they go up and down and it really piss me of when they take 40 TU for nothing.
    And I would like to add a doble click for the route: one for see the pathline and the TU cost and another one to give the order.

    - First week Lab: Usually before the first alarm I did a few raids (to Cult of Sirius) to improve the alien equipment, why? because is the only way to find a disrup gun and give some usefull work to my five Quantum physics scientificts during the first week. Is there any solution? maybe allow to acces to some of the UFO equipment (Power Source, Navigation System, Control System) to the first UFO?

    - Useless equipment: There is a lot of useless equipment even in the begining. The laser sniper rifle is very weak, the MarSec machinegun is far better than Megapol Lawpistol and plasma pistols are quickly replaced by disrups guns. I really miss more laser/plasma weapon (the first shouldn't need ammo and the second are more powerfull but limited ammo, similar to craft weaponry).

    - Lame Medpacks: I miss the old medpacks with stims (instead of energy they coul regain stamina) and IMO should be better if everybody could heal everybody, not only himself.

    - Binary Biology: Biology investigations are or useless or needed, authopsy/interrogation only serve to give you toxiguns and to get all the info of the aliens buildings. Authopsy/interrogation should give something more usefull and toxiguns should have a better tier because when you may fullfill the requirements for toxigun B BEFORE finishin Biological Warfare and you get Toxigun C almost at the end.

    - Ground craft are VERY lame: they are very weak and have lot of problems, they need or an great improvement or a tottally wipe.

    - X-com Probe / Explorer: both aren't bad but they are replaced BEFORE you can craft them by the Biotransport and Retaliator. It should reduce the requirements (maybe allow to craft both in a small workshop?) IMO.

    - Aliens "Ranks": Should be nice to find an Improved version of the spitter, popper and multiworms (because they don't have an "equipment improve")

    - Better balance between movement/shooting cost: In UFO defense and TFTD, you can made few shoots (only nine with some automatics weapons) but in apocalypse you can made fifty or more shoots! even you can run to point blank, make ten (or more) shoots and retreat to cover!
    In UFO Defense and TFTD, twelve soldier versus four or five aliens was a pain, here you can kill very easily (but you can die very quickly too).
    - Starting base: I would prefer to decide where I wanna start the game and where I like to put my rooms. Should be nice if you can select your first base (and give more or less starting money depent of the base).


    Sorry for the long post, I have more ideas/suggestion and I really want to help but unfortunatelly I don't know to code/program so I can only help with my knowledge and testing :D
     
  2. JonnyH

    JonnyH Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2014
    Messages:
    184
    Likes Received:
    36
    Best Answers:
    0
    Generally solid points. Currently, the plan is to 'recreate as-is', as I'm no game designer, but leave hooks for mods/tweaks later where possible.

    I loved the lawpistol - more damage and more accurate than a machine-gun - dual weilding them was godlike :D. Ran out of ammo awful quick, though...
     
  3. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    Welcome to the forums! And with quite a good post, too.

    Actually, many of your ideas were already discussed here, so it's not like you are alone. Such threads like this one may well become crucial for early OpenApoc modding.

    I haven't noticed this one that much, but if the pathfinding algorithm is flawed, then of course it should be fixed.

    Maybe as an option. This has never bothered me, but who knows, maybe I'd like your version more?

    Yes, this has already been proposed. And seems logical to me, anyway.

    Most of these have already been discussed too. The Laser Rifle certainly needs a boost, and some more balancing would also be in order.

    I never liked the new healing system either, but I think one still should be able to heal themselves (perhaps at a reduced rate).

    I'm not sure what you mean, but man! I missed the alien research topics from the first two games. It was such a disappointment! I wish we could actually interrogate the aliens somehow, as long as it doesn't violate the game lore (with Micronoids etc.). Can you really communicate with an Anthropod like you did with Sectoids? I guess you can, otherwise they wouldn't be caught meeting corporate officials...

    This has been discussed a lot. Yeah, enabling 360 degrees fire and allowing Small Disruptor Beams on ground vehicles should do the trick. Oh, and fixing the "kill the road to kill the vehicle" bug.

    Not sure about the small Workshop, but yeah, I agree. This has been proposed before, I think by Bobucles.

    I have to disagree here. Alien biology doesn't seem to allow for this. Besides, I like the current balance - Spitters are kinda weak, but Poppers are still very good at depleting your shields and Multiworms are dangerous distractions.

    It's not bad in itself, and I don't think the basic mechanic is a problem, though perhaps some weapons should be rebalanced.

    I think it was way easier to die in the previous games. This went for both sides.

    Similarly to the Openxcom starting base feature? Sure, why not.

    By all means, write on! :)
     
  4. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    Thanks for the answers! ;)

    I'm looking the old posts and there are interestings ideas, nice.

    About mi Biochem's topic: Autophsy and interrogation don't apport anything beyond toxiguns, I think we must learn from Enemy Unknow/Within and give something usefull (new researchs, investigation credits,...).

    About the aliens ranks: I think that spitter must have some improvements like inmunity to morale (they don't have a brain!!!) and making multiworms more aggresive (they usually like to hide and sometimes is a pain looking for a lone and stuck multiworm :-\ )

    One of the ideas I see in others post very interesting are the "Request" like the new Xcom some organizations can request for some items in exchange for a improvement in their relationship or better rewards, even more: some organization (like the goverment, marsec and megapol) can demand you to raid/attack their rivals, if you refuse you will anger them.
    I think this is a good idea and suit to the Xcom Apoc idea, you can get good to everybody.

    EDIT: Please! remove the Stun Raid bug!!!
     
  5. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    12
    Best Answers:
    0
    The agents will generally correctly calculate the optimal path for the time unit cost given on the cursor, but will move differently in execution. I think this could be considered a bug, and fixed for the original release of Open Apoc.
     
  6. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    I like the way Xenonauts do, tracking the way the soldier will do.

    About the double click: is very annoying when you try to click a soldier, miss and click and adjacent square and the other agent run to this position :mad:
     
  7. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    Ah, okay. But without a fleshed-out suggestion, there's not much to discuss. (I don't have any ideas that wouldn't alter the game too much.)

    This, so much. It was always strange to me that they'd panic.

    Yes, I'd like this one too.
     
  8. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    There is few ideas:

    Studing an Atropomorph could give some buff studing "basic equipment" (disrupt gun and boomeroid for example).
    Studing a Brainsucker could reduce the succes rating to brainsuck a victim (making the agents more resilient to they).
    Studing a Skeletoid could give some buff studing "advanced equipment" (devastator rifle, disrupt shield and vortex mine).
    Studing a Spitter could allow to use psionic on him (they use psionic senses so with this knowledge psionics's agents could "hack" this sense).

    Thanks, I think this should be a big work but the options of these "request" could rise a lot the game experience of this game a lot!
     
  9. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    I agree that the tech tree could use a few tweaks. I think that placing some portion of UFO systems (control, propulsion, navigation) in the unmanned probes would give XCOM enough stuff to research first thing. Don't forget that after researching all 3 UFO systems you get access to three new topics: The Advanced workshop, the XCOM probe, and the advanced lab. Any one system gives the advanced lab.

    XCOM basically has nothing for QP's to do the first week of the game. Giving them ANY topic to start with would effectively give XCOM a bonus week of research. I think UFO components are the ideal topic to give since they take a lot of time and don't give XCOM any immediate benefit.

    Unlocking disruptor guns first thing would clash with Apoc's displayed narrative of "aliens getting more aggressive as they encounter resistance from XCOM". The aliens already have plenty of lethal organic life forms to start with and should not be giving away weapons that you can use on the first week, especially a gun that invalidates the amazing weapon variety Apoc has.
    Eh. The Toxigun is already pretty damn good and it gives a reason to research eeeeverything. There is no way that studying aliens would help with manufacturing in any way because it directly clashes with everything the UFOPaedia says:
    So researching the aliens would not give any benefit. Likewise studying brainsuckers will not make your agents any better against the psionic helmet-removing compulsion of the Micronoids.

    I think the bio tree could use some more locked research because the game gives NO clue what topics are first needed for the Toxigun. If your first unlocked topics are only for the toxigun, then the goal becomes much more straightforward.

    Psionic effects are in another topic right now. It is odd that spitters have bravery stats, but it is easy to buff it to 90 or 100 to help them resist panic. Clearly their senses would render them vulnerable to stun type attacks that overload the senses.
     
  10. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    My susgestions for the research credits is because those creatures need to know the "basis" of the weapons (how it works and hot to use it at full eficiency) like Mutons and plasma weapons in Enemy Unknow/Within
    The problem IMO are toxiguns are a very powerfull weapon that make (almost) useless the others weapons, they do a lot of DMG and ignore shields and are very accurate and consume few TU (4 for a aim shot!!!). So the ONLY purpose of Biochem are toxiguns (and studing aliens buildings) and for me is very poor. QP have a lots of topics: weapons and equipment for your troops and your crafts, a new armor, new crafts, ... But BC can resume in "Toxigun".
    I was trying to give some examples of How BC could be, nothing more.

    And I understand the problem of unlocking disrupt guns earlier... but I don't wanna have five QP scientist doing nothing for the first week :p
     
  11. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    Why would the aliens need to know how their weapons work? Disruptor weapons require no known maintenance and recharge completely on their own. All an alien needs to know is how to point and click. Techs will figure that out 5 minutes after picking the thing up.

    Arthropods and Skeletoids may have a central nervous system, but they are not the intelligence behind the war. As far as Apocalypse is concerned, the micronoid entity is in control. There is no way for XCOM to understand this connection or even BEGIN interrogations until the war is already near its end and the aliens have gone full murder happy.

    Hahaha, isn't that the truth. The Toxigun is so absurdly good that it's totally unfair. Fear not, it absolutely needs its own set of nerfs. The two biggest things to attack are its insane fire rate combined with its shield piercing power. But not everything has to be perfectly in line, and it is OKAY for Toxin C to still kick ass. Endgame aliens also need some love, so that you feel the need to bring XCOM's best gear to the battle. Did you know that jumbo units NEVER make it into the city proper? It's absolutely disgusting, I tell ya.

    I understand this pain every time I start a new game. The simplest, most adequate change is to give one single UFO component from the first probes (they currently give none). Any single component unlocks the advanced lab, which is a big enough topic to fill that first week of research. It's also a head start on the longest tech chain in the game, a week faster on getting the lab, a week faster for hybrid craft, so that's pretty good. All 3 UFO components unlock hybrid craft, but you easily get that by the second week so it's not necessary.
     
  12. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2014
    Messages:
    90
    Likes Received:
    12
    Best Answers:
    0
    I was thinking there should be a special helmet you can research after brainsucker research that improves brainsucker resistance. It might have a trade-off over the standard Megapol helmet in armor or weight, but anyone who doesn't already have a really strong way to deter brainsuckers would want to use these. The Disruptor armor should have the brainsucker resistance on the standard helmet that comes with the set.

    It'd be great to get research underway toward that first dimension probe sooner, and then stretch out the X-Com designed craft so you have time to play with each one before you unlock another.
     
  13. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    I really don't like this idea. Brainsuckers are one of the few ways aliens can legitimately threaten XCOM troops in Apoc. There is already a huge selection of ways to deal with brainsuckers easily (fire, explosives, proximitys, missiles, androids, reaction fire the victim in the face), and there already is a hidden resistance formula(anyone have it?) that allows a successful latch to fail. XCOM doesn't need anything more, it's hard enough snatching an agent AS IS.

    Besides, the brainsucker weapon has 90 attack power. Nothing in the world is going to resist that.
     
  14. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    I'm agree with Bob, Brainsuckers are the real pain in X-com Apoc and any modification to improve the resistance VS their attacks can "break" this feeling.
    But I think another options, as Bobucles says in his Psionic post, you may develop a way to "cure" brainsucker's victims so a posibility could be that agents Brainsuckers who are stunned could be "enclosed" (even it could give another investigation topic) and finally cure.
     
  15. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    Yeah, it would be a very nice touch. It wouldn't give any real advantage to X-Com, since it would require keeping the affected agent for months, not even mentioning capturing the victim first, but saving people would be nice and cinematic. Perhaps you would keep them in the (currently unused) Prison facility?
     
  16. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

    Joined:
    Dec 2, 2014
    Messages:
    102
    Likes Received:
    3
    Best Answers:
    0
    The same way should be nice fighting brainsucked humans with the aliens when you investigaste Alien activity :)
     
  17. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    Any cure for the alien infection is best kept outside confines of the game. A key feature about XCOM is that when you lose a guy, they are gone and there's no getting them back. You wouldn't want players getting a squad of nigh indestructable human agents that can't even be brainsucked anymore. At the best vanilla lets you knock them out and pretend that they'll maybe eventually get the help they need.
     
  18. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    Perhaps. I do kind of wander why the aliens don't brainsuck civilians. I guess many arguments can be made both ways.

    I guess it is enough, but I can see no valid reason to not introduce this element, purely for fluff reasons. You mention "nigh indestructable human agents that can't even be brainsucked anymore", but I have no idea where you got it from; in the proposed model, nobody is immune to possession, it's more like an advanced version of Hospital facility that can cure people over considerable amounts of time, as long as you manage to capture them alive.
     
  19. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

    Joined:
    Sep 26, 2014
    Messages:
    169
    Likes Received:
    8
    Best Answers:
    0
    Just how "long term" are we talking about? The entirety of Apocalypse takes place over about 10 weeks. Discovering the micronoids happens around 7 weeks. Beyond that the Aliens run out of new tricks and even the Senate runs out of money. Are we talking weeks for a cure? Months? By the time XCOM makes progress on a cure and gets around to doing it, the war is going to be long over. That's not even getting into the slim possibility of getting back any piece of the original person after they've been torn apart by the infection.

    That's what I mean by "outside the game". Curing the micronoid parasite is fluffy and potentially cool fluff. But it's just not reasonable to try forcing a mechanic for this, especially when bringing back lost agents is contrary to everything XCOM.
     
  20. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2014
    Messages:
    198
    Likes Received:
    6
    Best Answers:
    0
    You seem to have a very profound knowledge of the mind overtaking process, don't you. :p
    Okay, maybe not months then, whatever. And I don't really push for this feature to be implemented, because frankly I'm not really sure it'd do the game good, I only stated that it shouldn't be harmful.

    Yeah, but not all the agents, just a small percentage. Brainsucking is responsible for maybe 10-20% of my losses, at least in the early game, and you still would have to capture the person alive. So, well, it wouldn't give you immortal soldiers.

    Alternately, we could program only the fluff into the game with no real benefit from capturing a brainsucked agent; for example, remove that person from the casualties on the debriefing screen and replace it with "Brainwashed and Crazy People" at -10 points each, or something to this effect.
     

Share This Page