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[mod idea] A few balance adjustments

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by The Reaver of Darkness, Nov 23, 2014.

  1. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    Here's a list of simple changes I think should have been made in the original game. If you guys have any to add, please share them below. Also, feel free to discuss my ideas and suggest changes.

    disclaimer: not everything here was originally my idea. If I list an idea you had posted earlier, it's because I agree with it.


    * Cargo modules should carry 250-500 cargo instead of only 50.
    * Rendor Plasma Guns should use only 1 elerium per shot (instead of 2), and Lineage Plasma Guns should use 2 elerium per shot (instead of only 1) and should have its damage buffed slightly to compensate.
    * Justice Missile Launchers should hold 3 shots and Retribution Missiles should have greatly increased damage (like 5x as much).
    * Either Hoverbikes should have their 1x3 weapon slot reduced to a 1x2, or Lineage Plasma Guns should take up 1x4 space--or both.
    * Craft autocannons and plasma guns, and disruptor missile launcher should have their max ammo reduced. It's hard to keep them all topped off but they're never in danger of running out.
    * Toxiguns should have their rate of fire greatly reduced to something more like the Megapol Lawpistol.
    * Megapol armor's protection should be reduced a bit.
    * The Megapol Laser Sniper Gun should have its damage increased a lot.


    Things to add to the game:
    * A large stun weapon, like something zookeepers might use. It would be useful for stunning multiworms, megaspawns, and the alien queen.
    * A heavy fighter craft bigger and tougher than a Phoenix Hovercar, with two 1x4 weapon mounts, but cheaper than a Valkyrie Interceptor and with less cargo space. Also less HP than Valkyrie but faster and more agile. It could have a 4x3 engine mount and max out with the SD Elite. The purpose would be to have the Valkyrie Interceptor's combat capability without having to pay that hefty price tag for all the rest of the ship which you don't want more than one of.
    * An enzyme cannon that you mount to your craft to melt through alien ship hulls quickly with greatly reduced risk of damage to the city or non-alien vehicles.
    * A special helmet that offers extra brainsucker protection--should be researchable after you research brainsucker. It seems surprising to me that X-Com would not work to develop something to protect their soldiers against that menace. Also brainsuckers are fake difficulty anyway.
    * Night Raid Armor: an alternate armor suit available on the market which has less protection than Megapol armor but makes your soldiers less visible in the dark--with an alternate helmet option (extra-expensive) that allows soldiers to see infrared and detect warm bodies in the dark and through some walls while allowing them to also just generally see terrain better.
    * Anti-enzyme Armor: a late-game armor suit that offers strong armor values with less resistance to disruptors but instead has a strong resistance to alien spit and enzyme attacks, and also resisting the entropy missiles. It would be an alternate option over the disruptor armor with a slightly different research path.
    * Power arms and legs: arm and leg armor units available on the market with very low protection but offering other advantages:
    Power arms: increases soldier strength
    Power legs: increases soldier speed
    * Stun missile for Marsec Heavy and Mini Launchers
    * Stun and alien gas clips for autocannon
     
  2. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Good idea. However, Apoc does not have a system to deal with mission cargo. If you have the module, vanilla gives you everything. This would require major changes from vanilla so that Commanders can choose what loot they get, what loot they can hire Fedex to pick up, and whatever gets left to the gangs of Megaprimus.

    Hoverbikes are not a balance issue. They compare very well to Hovercars and become incredibly vulnerable against late game UFOs. Hovercars get shields to survive things that would kill bikes.
    Similarly, Lineage hoverbikes are not a balance issue. There is not enough Elerium in all of Megaprimus to give XCOM the Elerium weapons they want. Commanders who risk Elerium on a bike that gets OHKO'ed by most UFO types are making a risk that can backfire badly.

    The big issue is that aliens need larger late game UFO fleets. XCOM gets insane fleet growth and the aliens get nothing to compensate. When the aliens realize that the alien dimension is in danger, they should be going all out to not only stop XCOM, but burn Megaprimus to the ground.
    Does the weapon actually work this way? I never did a full test and the UFOpaedia is pretty shaky on the issue. It's kind of an okay idea, but don't forget that the tank has an even stronger shot. It should be using 3 ammo per shot with this system.

    yes, totally. Cannon weapons should be reduced by 5x, and elerium weapons about 2x (3x for tank). This is in terms of raw shots; E-115 capacity would change if stronger guns use more ammo.
    Eh. I'm happy with the Justice missile being a 1-shot weapon. It was never made to kill small fast targets anyway. Give it bigger damage and let a fleet of small craft do the rest.
    Eh. The big issue here is that UFOs do not have any ammo to loot. This can be fixed by letting Commanders loot the missiles! Somewhere between 25-75% of ammo is pretty good. Reducing the disruptor bomb ammo by 50% may also be good.
    The manufacturing requirements of missiles are insane. Filling a single disruptor bomb launcher costs almost as much as building a fresh Annihilator hull! They can definitely use some love here.
    Absolutely 100%. Being blocked by shields would also go a long way to making the toxigun less of a kill-all.
    Yes. A bit more damage than the disruptor pistol should be okay.
    Both of these features do exact same thing. Strength increases carrying capacity, which ties directly to speed. Marsec Power armor already accomplishes this goal by being half as heavy as megapol armor (12 => 6 leg, 10=>5 armx2, 9=>4 helm). XCOM Disruptor armor goes a step further by making the weight nearly nothing, letting agents move at close to their maximum speed.

    The reduced weight of Marsec armor basically adds like 20 strength to the agent. Modifying this further is unnecessary and irrelevant at endgame.
    Hmm. Nah. Have you seen the huge difference that 6 armor points can do? Put on some Marsec armor and see for yourself. Megapol is in a pretty good spot. It protects agents against a few hits, and becomes compromised enough to pull your agents out. Commanders who don't risk injury or death.
    Aliens already get powerful options to kill megapol armor. Vortex Mines, Poppers and disruptor guns all prove that Megapol armor just isn't good enough to work with.

    Uh. You mean the Explorer, right? It'd be great if Explorer tech came earlier in the game. Basically by the time Xcom can build ships, it's less than two weeks to zip from Dimension probe to Annihilator tech. Smoothing this tech curve out would be great.

    It may also be good to buff the 1x4 guns a bit. There's only two of them anyway; the big laser and retribution launcher. Buffing ground vehicles will also go a long way to filling that mid game void.

    A) Irrelevant. XCOM doesn't have night time hazards, strangely enough. Everything is brightly lit as daytime all the time.
    B) You can already see through walls with the Motion Scanner. Try it out. It's pretty imba. Scanners + megapol armor make night raid armor a dead end tech best left to rent-a-cops.

    Enzymes exist purely to make XCOM's life miserable. Be happy they do not exist on UFOs.

    Don't take away one of the few options Aliens have to do some serious harm in late game.
    This already exists. It's called a metal head. Make friends with S.E.L.F. and don't ever send agents in alone.

    Already exists. Psionics are the most powerful long range stun you can have. Granted, everything PSI related could use a huge buff in Apoc.
    Heavy use of stun grenades and stun grapples make Hyperworms a breeze. Trust me, use them. They'll make your life a whole lot easier.

    Ayyy. This might be cool. Autocannons never really go out of style because HE is pretty good at clearing out brainsuckers and worms. But the tiny cloud created by an autocannon might be too small to do ANY good. It's easy to walk away and it would disperse super quick. A stun missile would be fun to use.
     
  3. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Sorry if I was a bit harsh on your ideas. Apocalypse does have its fair share of balance issues, but it does a good job with many things as well. For example the early game is great. There's a good mix of challenge and options available to the player. There are some major balance discrepancies (toxigun, sniper, tanks, free raids) but many other things fit together pretty well.

    The late game is seriously lacking though. We can blame a lot of this due to Apoc being an unfinished game. But some of it is due to a flaw endemic to all XCOMs, especially EU2012. I'm talking about the snowball effect. It works like this:
    Code:
    When XCOM does well, they gain more options. 
    When XCOM gains more options, fights become easier. 
    When fights become easier, XCOM does great. 
    Rinse, repeat.
    Apocalypse is the first game that seriously tries to address this. They introduce an entire city of corporations that XCOM has to play nice with, but the war with aliens is not nice. XCOM frequently faces problems where in order to win against the aliens, they are also doing damage that angers the city. Angering the city reduces options available to XCOM (incomplete feature, only seen with merchants, the senate, and transtellar). So you have a push back happening, where doing better against the aliens can actually reduce your options.

    As you continue to win the aliens become more deadly in vanilla. Micronoid rain is a super weapon that is super difficult for XCOM to defend, and UFOs start attacking the city instead of infiltrating it. This turns into the final game cinematic of XCOM barely saving a battered and ruined Megaprimus. I personally think that's awesome. I also think it's not enough.

    XCOM grows a bit too strong in their endgame, and the aliens do not have enough firepower to push against it. The aliens do not utilize their terror weapons (megaspawn, psimorphs), do not adequately defend their dimension, and do not launch large enough missions to place XCOM or the city at ultimate risk in the end.

    I think THAT'S the kind of stuff which worth modding. Bug fixes and new trinkets are okay, but they don't give Apoc what it lacks the most. What XCOM needs first and foremost are new challenges to overcome, and a flushed out endgame worthy of the most under appreciated title in the series. The best thing is that most the tools to make this happen already exist in vanilla, simply because Apoc has a burgeoning city, a great array of unique aliens, and lots of tech to play with. The options Apoc uses to push against XCOM are just not being utilized to their fullest.

    There's no need to mudflate the aliens or make hueg 10000 health beasts like what Long War does for EU. Just change an alien loadout here, include a terror mission there, make the aliens a bit smarter with their UFOs, and push REALLY hard when the player is beginning to win. It's simple, really.
     
  4. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I find that in late-game the aliens deal so much damage that the hoverbikes tend to last longer than the shielded hovercars, but either tend to drop like flies. In the end I just have to equip them with stuff I can afford to lose and try to hang on to them until I build ships to replace them.

    I make it work all the time. I can't use Lineage for every fight, but I can use it for most of the toughest craft if I buy out the whole stock every month. I can shoot down everything soft with autocannons and bolters. And there would be a lot less loss of elerium if the lineage plasma cannons had a lower ammo capacity. But I get way too much power with lineage hoverbikes. They can trash just about any UFO in seconds, not giving it much time to fire a shot in defense. Hoverbikes with 1x2 slots could still fit rendor guns, which would be plenty good if they only cost 1 elerium per shot. On the other hand, if lineage cost 2 per shot, hoverbikes with those might not be so overpowered after all.

    But those are very powerful missiles. 32 ammo really is a lot. I'd go with cutting the build time of disruptor missiles by 50% and cutting the disruptor launcher's ammo capacity down to 16, then the disruptor multi-bomb launcher down to 8 (from 12).

    No, they're very different. A soldier carrying a light armament will gain much more bonus from the power legs, while a soldier who is greatly encumbered will gain much more bonus from the power arms. But any soldier with both will gain a tremendous bonus either way. I figure the bonuses should be pretty strong to help outweigh the loss of armor (these should offer less protection than Marsec armor) and would be primarily useful in situations where mobility is more important for the soldier than protection. They could also be used in late-game in conjunction with personal shields.

    When I said a bit, I meant like 2 or 3. I know how much weaker Marsec armor is. Megapol armor protects too well for early-game. I'd like to see a mid-game armor you research that is stronger than megapol, but for starting out I'd say Megapol is too good. Vortex mines and devastator cannons appear in late game, and there is little time between seeing those and getting personal shields. Boomeroids, disruptor guns, and poppers aren't very effective against Megapol armor. I don't think I've ever seen a Megapol-equipped soldier die to a popper unless it had been hit previously in the same mission. Two poppers will do it, but one is never enough. And that's starter armor. Give everyone machineguns and leave em with a few time units, and the poppers are lucky to even make it to the squad. But if you really want to be safe from poppers, use proximity grenades and/or spread your people out.

    Very often, I use AP grenades to kill hyperworms. There is a bug in turn-based mode in which a hyperworm can deplete all of its time units in reacting to someone's expenditure of only 1 time unit (a temporal paradox), and thus killing a multiworm at point-blank range can be lethal. But the easy solution I've found is to drop (not throw) an AP grenade set to explode immediately. It blows up under the agent's feet and kills the hyperworms without causing any damage to the agent, unless they have had their armor weakened previously. That's silly high protection for starter armor, even with as much encumbrance as it has.

    Smoothing the X-Com ship tech out over a longer period of time is a great idea, but I was talking about a Marsec vehicle that would be available on the market for money, not something you research and build. Sometimes I want to use my Valkyrie Interceptor as a combat vehicle but it's always all alone because I can't afford more than one of the suckers. Their pricetag is far too high for their combat potential alone--though that makes sense given their use as a troop transport. But it'd be nice to have a combat-only variant for cheaper. Basically a big expensive hovercar.

    And yes there should be more 1x4 weapons. I'd go for adding something akin to janitor missiles, only 1x4 and a bit more powerful than prophet missiles. And then I'd add a 1x2 laser slightly weaker than the bolter. At 9 damage it could be useful for keeping the city safe from weapons fire--even safer than autocannons.

    And I think maybe the hovercars could do with a 1x2 slot and a 1x3 slot to reduce their power a bit. Also there's just no 1x2 slots in the game so it kind of makes the 1x2 weapons pointless other than for fitting in the 2x2 slots, but why would you put those in there when you can instead fit a light disruptor beam?

    True. It would be nice if night was darker, though it makes sense it's light in some areas because there is artificial lighting. Also, I was thinking the helmet would provide the improved vision right on the battlescape, whereas the motion scanner provides it on a tiny screen. Any part of the battlescape currently in the view of someone wearing the helmet would show with the improved visuals.

    It's a trade-off. If you wear enzyme armor, you're pretty safe from spit and enzyme, but more vulnerable to devastator cannons. But either way you have a lightweight suit that offers excellent protection from explosives and conventional weapons. I'd make the enzyme armor slightly weaker than disruptor armor because it's specific resistance will get used against more attacks and also it removes the threat of having expensive armor suits dissolved by entropy missiles.

    It's good that we can use androids to protect against brainsuckers, but they have plenty of disadvantages and also it is often very difficult to get enough of them to fill up a squad until late-game. I don't see why there shouldn't be a researchable option to offer more protection. It doesn't have to make the player invulnerable to brainsuckers, just significantly reduce their chance of success. Also, I don't understand why stronger helmets don't reduce the chance of brainsucker success. They seem to succeed about 60% of the time regardless of what is worn on the head.

    I agree completely with that! Is micronoid rain actually in the vanilla game? I have noticed that in late-game, corporations seem to get infiltration out of nowhere.
     
  5. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    No, they're pretty much the same. Strength in apocalypse has a singular purpose of preventing speed loss, and agents are ALWAYS over encumbered. Yes, they even lose speed when they're wearing disruptor armor. The difference between increasing speed vs. increasing speed is not important enough to matter either way.

    Marsec Armor already does EXACTLY what you have described in a simpler way. Each arm reduces weight by 6 (for 12 savings) and the legs reduce weight by 7. The end benefit is a huge speed bonus for your agents whether they wear only legs or arms or everything at once. So keep things simple. Don't add wasted mechanics.

    No, you can't. You literally can not make plasma bike swarms work because there is not enough Elerium ammo to make it possible. Every single gun loss is like a third or a quarter of the E-115 you have for the week, and a couple of bikes drop in many fights. You absolutely 100% HAVE to use the other weapons available.

    Lineage is so good that I wouldn't mind if it was increased to a 1x4 size weapon. It would give large ships some much needed love and keep the one strong gun away from bikes/cars. Reducing the bike weapon mount is a bad idea because there are no problems with using any other 1x3 weapon.

    The only way to get enough Elerium ammo for everything is to steal it from corporations. I have already noted that this is an exploit because Apoc has incomplete corporate mechanics and theft doesn't generate the anger that it should.
    Armor mechanics make a 9 damage weapon almost entirely useless. See for yourself. Pretty much everything worth shooting down has 8 armor or more. The weapon would not deal any damage past UFO 3, making it pretty much useless anyway.

    Eh. That's not really a problem. Apoc still has civilian vehicles, and civvies need guns. Let them have the 1x2 junk, civilian defense fleets definitely add flavor to the game. Even if the 10mm is totally useless, it still looks cool. XCOM needs the big toys.

    Hoverbikes do not need these huge sweeping nerfs. They will be in enough trouble if OpenApoc improves the aiming system to more accurately track targets. The only problem weapon at play is the Lineage Plasma Cannon.

    UFO incursions do not scale with difficulty level. It is perhaps a better idea to increase the size of UFO missions rather than nerf XCOM craft. More escort ships would definitely make XCOM's day harder.
    Poppers still hurt quite a bit! Armor mechanics are a fickle thing and even the slightest of changes can cause huge repercussions. Apoc is very different from previous games in that your agents are expected to take hits all the time. Because of this the armor allows them to survive a few attacks before decaying into the danger zone. XCOM agents heal very slowly and the time pace of the game is very fast. Any change in damage levels will dramatically alter agent fatigue.

    I think one of the faults with armor is that aliens are just really bad at dealing damage. Vanilla AI sends aliens running in circles and using inferior firing modes(an issue I'll talk about elsewhere), which wastes an enormous amount of their killing potential. Fix the AI and aliens can attack more frequently, more effectively, and cause rage with boomeroids all over the place. You will be wishing for every single armor point you have.

    Oh yeah. Multiworms and spitters have legitimately terrible damage. They could probably use a buff. Hyperworms could use a bit more controlled damage (they're like the only unit that uses autoshot).

    I do not think this is a bug. Apocalypse seems to use the same reaction formula from previous games. If true, reaction time is equal to the % of your TUs multiplied by your reaction attribute. I do not know if the formula accounts for encumbrance, but it probably doesn't. That makes the situation even more deadly.

    Agents in megapol armor lose around a quarter or a third of their TUs. Hyperworms have high reaction score and spawn with all their TUs. Even a fresh agent will give a hyperworm about half of its turn to act the instant it spawns. It IS possible for a fast agent in light armor to act before the Hyperworm can do much. But you do not see this happen until late game.

    There is no foul play here. It is simply awesome to be a hyperworm in turn based mode. The mechanics of turn based mode are another thing entirely and are worthy of their own thread.

    But you don't need a squad of Androids. One per squad is more than enough. Take advantage of their mind protection and let them take point where it counts. Load them down with HE autocannons and missile launchers and they will never miss. Proxy mines are good defense in turn based mode if you can work them.

    Losing agents to suckers is a deliberate and dangerous part of XCOM. It is how the aliens ultimately plan to win! Nerfing one of their iconic weapons is a bad idea.
    Lol I dunno. Psionic compulsion of the micronoid aggregate, I guess. Take off your helmet, XCOM. You know you want to. The attack itself has 90 "power" so it'd cut through disruptor helmets anyway.

    More testing is required to get the exact odds for brainsucker success. They do seem to hit less often at later points in the game. It could be health related, or armor related, or something else entirely. I honestly don't know.
    It's not an official name, but the ability does exist in vanilla. Late game UFOs can go on a special subversion mission where they will sprinkle down some kind of sparkly blue rain. This rain has a chance of completely overtaking an organization. It is VERY difficult for XCOM to defend and places a dangerous time pressure to beat the aliens. Since alien mind control is caused by the micronoid parasite it is unofficially called micronoid rain.
     
  6. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Wow, that post got really damn big! Here's a few more things:

    Ehhh. I think it is a better option to buff ground vehicles rather than give XCOM even MORE flying power. For example the light disruptor beam is available VERY early in the game and sits around being useless for like half the game, after which it becomes COMPLETELY useless. If ground vehicles can use it, you suddenly have a strong weapon that can be used very easily. It may even give hoverbikes a run for the money.

    Medium and large disruptor tanks could end up being XCOM's best option for mid game lethality. A tank with alien missiles would be super deadly. All of these options put together gives XCOM more than enough UFO killing power without the need for yet another aircraft.

    If the tech tree gets played with, the most obvious balance tweak is to make the Explorer available much earlier in the game. I'll go over my thoughts on Apoc's tech tree some other time.
    Ehhhh. There really isn't any need for a new armor type. Disruptor Shields already provide damn good defense against entropy guns and cover the mid game gap in protection. Shields easily last long enough to focus down the entropy threats, and regular armor can do the rest. So there is never any point where entropy weapons are a huge problem.

    In real time the entropy missile is fairly slow so you can easily avoid the attack with cover. In turn based the weapon has such low fire rate that one or two shields can absorb an entire turn of fire. That's not even getting into the use of Psionics, which would allow you to instantly disable an entropy alien before he has a chance to fire.

    This is what I mean when I say that Apoc has a pretty decent balance. There are a lot of clever ways to deal with alien threats by using a new style of play. That is vastly superior for a strategy game than using direct Rock-Paper-Scissors counters.
    16-24 missiles, half the ammo production time, and half its cost? That would probably do the trick.

    Why nerf the multi bomb? If anything it will hurt the aliens more than XCOM, because the missile is made to shred bikes and cars. It's moderately difficult to fill ammo (along with the stasis launcher) and could use a bit of love, maybe.

    It would be far better to give XCOM some AMMO after capturing an alien ship. Vanilla gives absolutely empty launchers which is really bad. The best bet is to give whatever leftover ammo the alien ship had. A more complex solution is to model this ammo in the battlescape, but that's a pretty tough thing and UFOs have WAY more ammo decals than their weapon uses. I think. I never really bothered to count.
     
  7. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Stun missile should be nice but I don't see a Stun Gas clip for autocannons (they already have many ammon options).
    I really like Mini launchers but I miss some kind of anti-person missile (high damage and small radious).
    Another idea could be adding alien gas early and make it with two or three tiers, like toxiguns.
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    I honestly don't see this being useful. The autocannon explosive diameter is only like 5 tiles wide. The cloud wouldn't cover enough area to work that well. Fire works because it lingers around and can spread somewhat. Clouds can only disperse.
    You mean the explosive and FIRE variety? The former kills guys pretty good and the latter forces them to run out of the fire. How much more anti-personnel can you get?
    I dunno about this. It's true that alien gas comes almost disappointingly late in the game. The issue is that it is an XCOM super weapon. It kills aliens pretty damn fast, it ignores shields, and it deals ZERO property damage. That last part is pretty major because XCOM relations is a major part of the game even with corporations in their incomplete state.

    I do think the endgame could use some major overhauls to the point where you want AG gas in your arsenal to deal with whatever (like 15 arthropods in a hallway, for example). It's so good and it feels good to use, but the endgame is too easy so XCOM never really needs to use it.
     
  9. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    I was thinking in a missile with high dmg but a small radious, something usefull for the big guys (psimorph and megaspawn)
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Hmm. Both UFO and TFTD had "features" where explosive weapons dealt 4 attacks against the large terror units. Apocalypse has no such thing, so a marsec large missile ends up about as lethal as a few shots from a pistol. There's no way to change this except with modding.

    One possible option is to play with damage types, so that big guys take more damage from explosives and less from everything else.

    Another is to tweak armor values so that conventional weapons end up mostly mitigated.

    Creating a HEAT type of weapon as Grimagor suggests means changing how explosive weapons work in Apoc. I think it still uses the UFO/TFTD system where explosion damage directly correlates with size, so a high power small explosive is impossible to make.
     
  11. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    It's logical and I undersand :)
    And I like the idea of rising explosive dmg VS large guys and lowering the rest.
     
  12. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Actually, I think explosives already deal extra damage in Apoc. IIRC, missile weapons deal both direct impact damage and the explosive damage. It's more obviously seen when a missile weapon strikes shields, as you get a shield effect from the love tap AND when the explosion resolves. I dunno how much damage the love tap does, but if it is equal to the missile damage then it would be double damage against the target.

    Since the damage is resolved as two hits, XCOM agents and aliens would get double protection from armor. XCOM tends to have much higher armor so a minilauncher hit for 50x2 wouldn't hurt megapol armor very much while a big missile for 90x2 or 110x2 would have trouble against disruptor armor. That kind of damage would be very effective against big guys though.
     
  13. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    So the problem are the "double protection", right? It can be fixed?
     
  14. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Huh? I was saying the opposite. The double protection lets missiles be twice as lethal against big aliens without utterly destroying XCOM troops. That is a good thing because it does exactly what Grimagor was talking about.
     
  15. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Okey, problem solved ::)
     
  16. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    I propose the Three tiers of alien gas to make the launchers (rocket and minilaunchers) very usefull along all the game.
    And personally I'll eliminate stun grenade and I'll make it a new kind of ammon for the launchers.
    Or will give to the aliens more resilient VS stun grenade and you need to develop new kind of stun gas.

    Or create some kind of "entropic explosive ammo" for the autocannon?
     
  17. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    What's wrong with stun grenades? They'll less efficient than a missile would be, though admittedly they are more handy.
     
  18. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    I'm not a fan of placing ANY gas inside an autocannon. It's already a pretty damn good weapon as is. Besides, it's not like you can really CLOUD an area with a bullet not much bigger than your thumb.

    Stun grenades are S-tier weapons. Don't toy with my heartstrings like that. There are bugs that make stun smoke deal multiple hits so that's obviously something to fix in OpenApoc.

    Alien gas absolutely renders every other type of explosive and incendiary weapon obsolete. They belong at the endgame.

    I do think the heavy launcher should have a bit of a wider radius. But I think the real issue is that the minilauncher has clips of 5 rockets, when the inventory screen and UFOpaedia CLEARLY show the weapon using single rockets. It's hard to compete with a weapon that has over 10 times the ammo capacity (6 max vs. 70 max).

    Yeah. Your agents can seriously max out on 70 marsec mini missiles. 10 in the hands, 20 on the legs, and 40 in the backpack. Holy shit. Even if the weapons were single fire you would cap out at 14 missiles, which is still pretty damn good.
     
  19. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    I think the same

    Even a weaker and earlier version?
     
  20. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    I'd like an earlier lethal gas that works on both aliens and humans... Mostly for sadistic reasons. :p
     

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