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Suggestion If you want to fix ground vehicles...

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by Creator, Jan 6, 2018.

  1. Creator

    Creator Member Programmer Researcher

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    I was thinking about why ground vehicles are so bad and why nobody uses them. I came to the following conclusion: they are all broken. This is what needs to be fixed to make them useful:

    1. All ground vehicles must move outside roads but with speed penalty. Pathfinding algorythm must use different weights for road and off-road cells to find proper path from one point to another with proper use of on-road and off-road movement. It can be easily implemented.
    2. Ground vehicles must not be destroyed if terrain under them is damaged. If they are on a bridge and bridge collapses then vehicle must fall and recieve falling damage instead of instant death. Tough vehicles must survive.
    3. Ground vehicles must be able to stop and stand on the ground as long as needed. They must not spend fuel when standing on the ground (so, you can use them as defese turrets).
    5. "Airguard Anti-Air Cannon" is broken. Its DPS is very low, but according to Ufopedia it should be better than 40mm cannon. And this is whats wrong. This cannon has 2 barrels and its DPS becomes normal if damage is doubled. Logic says that it must fire 2 rounds per shot, but now it fires only 1 round. It seems to me that a byte in game files must say how many rounds per shot a cannon must fire. If we determine this byte then we must check all other weapons too. Maybe we will find surprises. Some underpowered weapons can probably fire more rounds per shot.
    6. Griffon AFV must turn its turret 360 degrees.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2018
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  2. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist

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    i add some
    ground vehicles slow but they should have very long shoot distance
    like 3250 but this long distance have own feature - like poor accuracy with increasing range

    for example Range of fire T-90 russian tank 5km
    they have also anti tank misseles wich same range or more
    that can change traectory etc
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
  3. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Administrator Administrator Tester Researcher

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    @Creator A lot of the issues you cover are already fixed, to a degree, in OpenApoc. We have the option for tanks to ride offroad, we have options for armoured and invulnerable roads finally we have vehicles crashing instead of being destroyed... They can later be recovered. Pathfinding is to be improved, but at least it is being worked on slowly...
     
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  4. Creator

    Creator Member Programmer Researcher

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    Added:
    7. Noticed new bug in OpenApoc (it was absent in original X-Com Apocalypse). When ground vehicle stays on the street for a long time then it gets out of fuel. When fuel has ended, an air crane comes and evacuates vehicle back to X-Com base. And then a message says that vehicle is "Unrepairable" and it disappears. It should be fixed.
    8. Filmboy84 said: "We have the option for tanks to ride offroad". It is good, but not enough. Wolfhound APC must do the same because of a simple reason: it must serve as a primary transport which transports X-Com agents to landed UFOs and back. If has 14 sitplaces for passengers. And hence, it is intended to transport X-Com agents. We must allow players to use it this way.
    9. Blazer Turbo Bikes and Stormdogs must be used as automatic taxi for agenrs and scientists. Why do you need it? Because Transtellar can sometimes turn against you and won't provide taxi and trucks any more. So, you won't be able to transport men and cargo between your bases. This is why a new option must be added: two checkboxes in hangar: "use this vehicle as a taxi" and "use this vehicle as a truck". These options must be available for Blazer Turbo Bikes, Stormdogs and maybe some other vehicles: Bio-transport, Wolfhound APC. Other vehicles should not be used this way. So, what will we have in the end?
    - Player will have beautiful way out if relationships with Transtellar are completely broken (yes, you can also attack Transtellar enemies, but it is not good).
    - Player will need to buy Blazer Turbo Bikes and Stormdogs because they are cheap and the best for taxi and truck roles. And by the way, Stormdog equipment size must be changed: it must be 2x2 to fit one cargo module there.

    In general, idea is the following: to make ground vehicles useful you must give player a problem and then give a vehicle which solves this problem. In this case vehicle will become useful. Which problems can ground vehicles solve?
    - Fast reaction (they serve as guard towers). Yes, you can land air vehicles in different buildings for the same purpose/ But you still require time to take off, air vehicles are less armored and they are more expensive. So, ground vehicles is very good solution.
    - Cheap automatic transport (which is needed in the case of Transtellar problem).
    - If some vehicles will gaurd area then other vehicles will need to transport ammo and fuel to them. So they will work as supply vehicles.
    - Maybe anything else?
     
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  5. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist

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    1 Andrey noticed bugs publish pls here
    https://github.com/openapoc/openapoc/issues

    2 this is realistic but need in last) but hey its opensource project and you c++ programmer
    you can do what ever you want))
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2018
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  6. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Administrator Administrator Tester Researcher

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    Issue (7) reported to GitHub on @Creator 's behalf. Listed as Issue #341

    With regards to (8) I agree, having the wolfhound capable of off-road driving would make sense.

    (9) I am more skeptical of your views on, whilst I agree something needs to be done with regards to the effects of transtellar becoming hostile, this is one attribute of the organisation that makes it unique, if you stop the effect of transtellar becoming hostile stopping all transport of agents/goods, then it becomes like any other hostile organisation. Instead i propose that a hostile transtellar would stop all cargo transport (representing sanctions or an embargo against X-COM) but ship agents around at a grossly inflated cost to X-COM... This could be represented by a huge increase in recruitment costs or something and would be much more "canon" behaviour without breaking the game. Altering the functionality of the Blazer Turbobike and Stormdog as you propose would be better as an optional mod... It changes the play-style of Apoc significantly.

    Issue (5) can you tell if this is the case in OpenApoc? If so please report to github, it does need fixing if its in there.

    Issue (6) Agreed, 360 degree firing of the Griffon AFV is essential to resolving some issues with placement on the harder maps.
     
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  7. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    Regarding Transtellar: I understand it's a unique organization and it should remain so. However, the inability to transport your own goods is indefensible. If you can send a vehicle to a Megapol factory to pick up some fear, and Megapol likes you, why wouldn't you be able to bring the goods to the base? Because of some embargo? Hey, you can nuke the Senate in this game and still win it!
    However, I think assigning your vehicles as trucks goes too far. It completely removes the problem you are supposed to have; in fact, the game communicates to you that you are expected to be at war with Transtellar.
    My solution? Allow transport of goods on your own, but only manually. Go to the supplier, load your stuff, return to base. Strategically it will be the same as automatic transportation, but it will give the player a real incentive to keep Transtellar relatively happy. It's a rather oldschool method, but hey, it's no different from, say, the manager's office in Dwarf Fortress.
     
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  8. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I agree with all that stuff but I also think the roads should be more durable. Since when is a few autocannon rounds enough to demolish a whole square of asphalt or concrete? The gangs frequently fire shots into the city, and the police have no qualms shooting back. This is a city that should be designed with stray shots in mind. The aliens aren't the first time air-to-ground weapons fire has ever been seen by these people. Buildings it makes sense they collapse when you break their structure, but the individual pieces should have a bit more HP, and it would be nice if they reach a "broken" state before actually disappearing. But the roads should be especially durable and should reach an unusable state long before they collapse and take big sections with them. Also, there should be plenty of redundancy to the structure of both roads and people tubes. Not only should there be plenty of alternate paths, but one broken segment shouldn't ever take out an entire line of road or tube. Nobody would use those roads or tubes if they were that dangerous.


    This problem is something I see in virtually every game that has friendly NPCs in a dangerous world: the NPCs are unfit to survive in the world and will die simply from being watched. The only thing that keeps them alive when the player is away is the lack of events happening. I think it should be important to make sure that there is no significant difference to the city damage level from watching vs. fast forwarding, and that means iterating on the NPCs enough to make them more likely than not to survive a dangerous situation, one way or another. You can make the city more durable, you can make things do less chain-collapsing, you can give the NPCs AI tactics to avoid danger, but one way or another it needs to happen.

    Perhaps little will be done toward this for OpenApoc, which is fine. But I really hope the opportunities to fix this with mods are present.
     
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  9. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Administrator Administrator Tester Researcher

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    @The Reaver of Darkness Armoured roads are already in OpenApoc thankfully (and have been for some time), find them under the "More Options" dialogues. There's also "Invulnerable Roads" if you want them ;)

    upload_2018-3-20_12-35-21.png

    I agree though, lots of small changes are needed to make things more pleasant for road and people tube users :)
     
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