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Ideas for "Toxinerf"

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by Grimagor, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

    Jul 8, 2014
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    I think it would be very anal in the real-time mode, since you can't control your fire that well - the agents shoot everything hostile on sight, and preventing them from doing so is... well, not impossible, but very time-consuming.

    I think the very fact that the number of enemies is significantly increased on any anti-alien action (for Added Alliterative Appeal) in traitor organizations' buildings is hard enough. (They probably have alien guns.)
  2. borsek

    borsek Registered

    Feb 22, 2016
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    Is a toxigun nerf really necessary though? If you want a challenge you might as well try beating the aliens with conventional weaponry. It also sort-of defeats the point, imho - why not just use devastators then? These two guns are the contenders for the best weapons to equip your agents with, and the only benefit the toxigun has is the fact it pierces shields.

    I'd love the nerf, if it meant getting alien gas in A, B and C varieties, which would also sort-of make it actually useful except for the last 3 buildings.
    makus likes this.
  3. makus

    makus Designer, forum admin Administrator Designer/Artist

    Sep 24, 2014
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    what about adding some aliens from first and second part of X-COM?)
    they will be more smarter then antropods or skeletoids
    and also toxiguns dont affect them at all)
    and they come up close to middle of the game...

    or simple make that toxigun just can not penetrate the force field
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2017
    Yataka Shimaoka likes this.
  4. Yataka Shimaoka

    Yataka Shimaoka Well-Known Member Tester Translator/Writer

    May 3, 2017
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    Would be an splendid idea to nerf toxiguns
  5. Creator

    Creator Member Programmer Researcher

    Jan 4, 2018
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    The problem of Toxigun is not n its power. The problem is that alternatives don't exist. But there is an alternative in game files – Dimension Destabilizer (DD). It is improved version of Devastator Cannon. Lets consider it.

    Toxigun pros:
    - Kills aliens fast
    - Ignores shields
    - Allows to capture shields (loot)
    - Allows to pick up alien shields when yours are depleted
    - Bad precision
    - Need to produce ammo
    - Not effective vs humans (especially when you need to clear Culf of Sirius from alien presence)

    DD pros:
    - Good precision
    - Don't need ammo
    - Effective vs humans
    - Kills unshielded aliens fast
    - Shielded aliens don't die as fast as from toxigun
    - You broke shields (no loot)
    - You can't pick up alien shieds when yours are depeted.

    Whats the choice? Toxigun of course. Because:
    - Precision is not that significant because you have good rate of fire and you can come closer.
    - Ammo production is not serious disadvantage because it is not costy and not time-consuming.
    - When you deal with Culf of Sirius and aliens at the same time - you use toxigun in one hand and other weapon on other hand. Not a serious problem.
    - Picking up alien shields on the battlefield is very significant.
    - If you use DD then you broke alien shields and therefore, must produce your own. Shield production takes more time and money.

    Solution can be the following:
    - Add DD.
    - Shields don't disappear when depleted.

    So, looting becomes possible with DD too. Ability to pick up alien shields becomes insignificant because your shields do recover when depleted. Now you choose between two variants:
    1. Toxigun: ignores shields + need ammo production + bad precision.
    2. DD: damages shields + no ammo spendings + good precision.
    The choice is not obvious now. So, an alternative has been created.

    Which other alternatives can be created? Lets look at weapon characteristics:
    - Damage
    - Rate of Fire
    - Splash
    - Stun
    - Fear
    - Range

    Now lets combine them:
    - Normal Damage + Rate of Fire = Toxigun
    - Normal Damage + Precision = Dimension Destabilizer
    - Normal Damage + Splash = Alien Gas
    - Rate of Fire + Splash = Auto Cannon (maybe toxin ammo for it in midgame?)
    - Splash + Stun = Stun Grenade
    - Splash + Range = Dimension Missile Launcher
    - Normal Damage + Stun = Stun Grapple
    - Normal Damage + Fear = ??? new fear weapon ???
    - High Damage + Short Range = ??? new shotgun-like weapon ???
    - Rate of Fire + Stun = ??? new stun bullets for M4000 Machinegun ???
    - Range + Stun = ??? new stun ammo for a missile launcher ???

    After considering all these combinations we can choose two of them:
    - Toxin ammo with splash damage for Auto Cannon.
    - Disruptor shotgun (a candidate does exist in game files – it is Force Web).

    So, 3 alternatices can be created: Dimension Destabilizer, Disruptor Shotgun and new auto Cannon ammo. In the end of game the 4th alternative appears: it is alien gas.
    FilmBoy84 and makus like this.
  6. FilmBoy84

    FilmBoy84 Administrator Administrator Tester Researcher

    Oct 9, 2017
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    @Creator Thank you for your ideas, it's wonderful to see the level of thought put into this issue. I salute you for this

    With regards to the Dimension Destabiliser, having access to pre-release versions of Apocalypse in the past and currently Beta2 i can confirm the following behaviours

    The Dimension Destabiliser KILLS shields quickly. I agree having it disable them for collection instead of deplete the item would be very useful and give the weapon some use (that's not already in the game).

    The Dimension Destabiliser DOES NOT harm enemy units at all; it's not simply an upgrade to the Devastator Cannon sadly; it was intended to be but the item was never fully completed so it exists simply to remove shields allowing non-lethal methods to be used to collect aliens or in combination with the toxigun to kill them. It was removed once the toxigun was changed to ignore shields as it no longer served a purpose.

    The Force-web was a Stun Grapple with splash effect; it was used for Stunning the BIG aliens (Psi-Morph & Mega-Spawn) in the late game. It was also planned for use against some of the "cut" creatures such as the Acoustic Monster that fired sonic beams to disable agents and other prey. The Force-Web was not as powerful in it's stun effect as the Grapple but was still useful as a few rounds would stun most creatures or allow you to freeze massed enemy units within a radius of tiles (between 9 and 13). It's use was ESSENTIAL in capturing the VIPs of rival organisations in Battlescape and holding them to ransom, interrogation or torture from the Cityscape - this feature was eventually removed so the forceweb went with it and the stun-grapple left as the only stun weapon in-game instead (obviously excepting grenades).

    The Force-Web was NOT a shotgun in any form - it was for incapacitating large creatures or mobs of enemy units.

    Contrary to common belief the Energy Pod was not always used for the Forceweb... Instead it was at one time used in shield generators that could be placed by agents as improvised cover (a really useful bit of kit in the late game).

    I love the idea of Toxi-Ammo for the Autocannon and would love to see this in a mod to give some of the non-X-COM weapons a use in the mid to late game! Great Idea.

    Personally, i don't think the toxigun is that OP as by the late game when Toxin-C is gained, X-COM is winning anyway, instead the easiest solution to counter its power is return the the levels of enemy units in Beta Apocalypse (Around 50% higher in numbers, sometimes as much as double per mission) with the more advanced AI shown in Beta versions activated and running in-game. Also, a reduction in range to the Toxigun would instantly improve it's balance (currently it has the range of a rifle despite being a pistol).

    As to alien gas, this really should be available before the queen, but it is very OP in its current form despite adding new ammo for the Marsec Launchers (which is really nice). Personally, i think it should be available as soon as the aliens get their dimension missile launchers in the Battlescape.

    In either case, i would love to see all of your ideas above in mods to have a play around with and see what works :)

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