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Ideas for "Toxinerf"

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by Grimagor, Dec 15, 2014.

  1. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Hello averybody,

    I was thinking in diferent ways to avoid the abuse of toxiguns, some of the options are focused in the weapon (a very smart choice IMO) but I was thinking in a diferent way...
    What will happen if "creating" the ammo were dificult or limited? One of my ideas was adding aliens corpse or alive to create the ammon (like some equipment in EU-EW), maybe alive aliens could provide more "material" for the toxins than dead ones (to incentivate capture more alive aliens). And now, let's make another twist: What will happen if aliens killed by toxiguns don't leave a body? you will be forced to avoid equip the toxiguns to all your agents.

    I don't know how difficult could be adding "extra materials" to the cost of production :(

    Opinions?
     
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  2. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    There are no such thing as "extra materials" in vanilla Apocalypse. Everything a workshop needs can be provided by Megaprimus or nano assembled in the workshops for a nominal fee.

    It might make for a cool mod, but it would take quite a while to figure out. As is, vanilla Toxigun ammo IS fairly expensive to make. Commanders can easily spend $10K or more loading up, and the total game expense of ammo can easily surpass $50K.

    Hmm. What if city relations affected the cost and ease of production? For example nutrivend may provide some of the materials for Toxigun ammo. Good relations would lower cost, while poor relations would increase the cost and difficulty of manufacture.

    I guess I'll add it to the pile of ideas I've been saving up for Apoc's corporate game. That's overhaul territory so it's too far off to worry about now.
    Huh? It wouldn't change much, really. The only thing it would do is save you the hassle of having to incinerate all the excess bodies you come across, which is actually kind of a BUFF. The toxigun don't need no buffs. Apoc gives you like 90% of all the alien types before the first Toxigun makes it out of the workshop. Every alien has to be captured anyway to knocking it out would still get you both topics.

    Alien bodies are invincible in Apocalypse. Perhaps giving them some kind of limited durability would help?
     
  3. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    That's what I was afraid to :-\


    If you can only create a clip for one body AND aliens damaged by a toxigun can't be recovered, they will change a lot IMO.

    Maybe should be better changing the availability of ammo (or toxigun) in some way rater than modifing their stats?
     
  4. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    There's been a fair amount of discussion on how to nerf the toxigun. There are three methods which IMO would do the trick:

    - Remove the shield bypass bonus. Toxiguns have a vanilla 25% damage against shields (typical is 50%) so it would be twice as difficult to remove a shield with the Toxigun AND you would lose the best way of getting shields. This is a very big nerf.
    - Reduce the fire rate. The Toxigun sports a 4.5/sec fire rate, which is even higher than the machine gun. Yes you can cap out the game engine by dual wielding Toxigun on full auto. Somewhere between 2-3/sec would probably be decent.
    - Directly reduce the damage. The Toxigun deals 50A/65B/85C damage, along with a huge amount of damage modifiers. This could be potentially be reduced further or the mods could be less forgiving against higher tier aliens.

    There's a more exotic option of increasing the number of human enemies XCOM has to fight. Toxigun is totally worthless against humies so you would need to use other weapons.
    I see you've played a bit of EU. I'll admit the new XCOM does a great job of making every single drop useful in some way. That is an option to explore for modding Apoc. It probably wouldn't work that well because there aren't many unique things worth building and the market/aliens already provides most of what you need.
     
  5. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    I like this one ;D

    I agree with the last part, but I think they only work for some bioenginering stuff
     
  6. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    It does state in the toxin descriptions that the toxins are supposed to be particularly effective on certain segments of the alien life cycle. What if each toxin were much less effective against the wrong alien types? For instance:

    Toxin A: best against multiworms, hyperworms, eggs, and chryssalids and worst against megaspawn, psimorph, and micronoid aggregate.
    Toxin B: best against spitter, anthropod, brainsucker, popper, and skeletoid, and okay against everything else.
    Toxin C: best against megaspawn, psimorph, and micronoid aggregate and worst against multiworms, hyperworms, eggs, and chryssalids. Of course Toxin C has such a high base power it'll still one-shot a brainsucker or hyperworm.

    This could be combined with making shield units still drop when depleted to make other methods of killing aliens more attractive because you don't have to bother with ammo selection as much. It would also make multiworms remain strong in the end-game because only the weakest toxin is the best against them. The fastest way to kill a multiworm would usually involve rupturing it and letting the hyperworms out.
     
  7. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    The idea is nice but it have some "holes"
    - Toxigun A have very short life (you can have all the requirements to the Alien Life Cycle before develop the Toxigun)
    - When you have Toxigun C you are very near to the end and you probably have the Alien Gas :-\
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Juggling ammo types is kind of a "meh" chore. You already need every single alien type to get the later upgrades. Just let them be. High tier aliens seem to have some level of personal armor to protect against toxigun ammo as is. Megaspawn never seem to go down THAT fast.

    Heh, nah. Shield piercing is the #2 reason that Toxiguns are so damn good. For a second time player, racing the Toxigun is the fastest way to build up a huge stockpile of shields. Let shields block it. Maybe it'll force a change of play style between weapons.
     
  9. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I don't have a problem with shields blocking toxigun fire, but I feel like there should be some weapon that isn't blocked by shields, or otherwise you'll never get any shields without resorting to stun gas raids. I don't see why you wouldn't just collect broken shield units.
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Getting rid of Toxi shields is definitely an important change. It gives shielded aliens a chance to deal some real damage and cuts out most of the free shields XCOM gets.

    The other vanilla options for removing shields are stun gas, psionics, and FIRE. Psionics lets you MC an alien to throw his shield, or psi stun to drop him. It doesn't take many shields to outfit your squad, and there is always the option of building your own. Being difficult to capture is okay because shields are really really damn good.

    Vanilla stun grapples currently suffer from a bug where they deal NOTHING against shields. One option is to let stun grapples pierce shields. Getting close to an alien is risky business as is, so this can be one of the rewards for it.

    Oh yeah. Did I mention that FIRE pierces shields? Unfortunately due to XCOM's history of faulty fire mechanics, even the most moderate armor is completely impregnable to fire. Hell I've been sitting my agents in fire for two whole minutes now. Nothing. Fire mechanics have to change first, but they can be the most effective way of grabbing shields. Finally fire might get a use!
     
  11. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    As you say, removing the "ignoring shield" is a good way to avoid their abuse and use another ways :D
    But we must find a balance between Toxins and devastator guns (as you said before, increasing TU cost is a good way)
     
  12. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    It's not just the devastator cannon we have to worry about. Plenty of other weapons should be bumped up to be viable or at least kinda okay.

    One option is to give alien life forms some kind of resistance against devastator guns. This makes them more dangerous against everything that isn't an alien- I.E. XCOM. Not a bad choice for higher difficulties, after all the aliens built the guns to kill people, not aliens.

    Another option is to reduce the accuracy cap. Humans are the #1 choice to hit accuracy cap, and the current cap of 96 ("4 miss" value) is absolutely insane. Reducing it to 80 or 90 or some multiple of agent starting value will help. Androids could also get various upgrades with XCOM research.

    Another option is to increase the amount of anti-human hazards. Entropy is obvious, but psionics uniquely target the human class over hybrids and androids. Buff PSI across the board (maybe let psimorph dual wield psionics) and the psionic aliens will turn your low defense humans into a liability.

    Fire is always an option. Refer to the fire thread for details.
     
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  13. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I think the disruptor gun needs a major buff, and the whole accuracy system just needs a complete rework. Maybe fixing accuracy will fix the disruptor gun.
     
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  14. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    In my experience the Accuracy attribute is pretty damn fair right up to 80'ish accuracy. At that level every additional point of accuracy skyrockets to insanity.

    It makes sense. The "miss rate" in Apocalypse starts from 0 and goes up, so a perfect score of zero is displayed as perfect 100% accuracy. It's tough to hack in but nothing misses. Nothing. The stat cap for the miss rate is 4 (96 accuracy), which is five times as tight a choke as 20 miss rate (80 accuracy). Actually it's even better because the cone's base surface area increases as the square of the conical angle... or something like that.
     
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  15. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    Sure, and it takes 8 weeks of training over the course of some 20-30 missions before a soldier can autofire a machinegun in less than a 45? angle. That's both completely unrealistic and completely game-breaking. It means that for the majority of the game (all of it if you lose very many soldiers) your accuracy stat is worthless and you're much better off just running up close to the enemy. A soldier with 50 accuracy (usually indicates a pretty significant amount of training) will tend to miss doing snap shots with a megapol plasma gun (one of the more accurate weapons) at only 8 squares away. It only takes 14 time units to move up next to the target, and 1 time unit per shot to blast them to bits with a machinegun.
     
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  16. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Reaver, you're talking about turn based mode. Turn based mode is notoriously easy because the turns are too long. Agents have way too many chances to fire, and battles can be decided before the other side gets a chance to retaliate. Running is also super OP in turn based because it literally doubles an agent's speed and does not suffer all the awkward animations that make it closer to a 50% boost with real time movement.

    Machine guns are always inaccurate. They excel at close range and you don't dual wield them in turn based mode.

    Firing modes are a bit broken in apocalypse. Autoshot gives double the fire rate, but the accuracy penalty isn't that bad. You get twice as many chances to hit. Going into prone aimed shot mode burns a HUGE part of an agent's turn, and cuts your fire rate to 1/4. You don't get 4 times better accuracy with aimed shots, so it's kind of useless.
     
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  17. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    Yeah playing in turn-based is easy because you just run up next to anything and kill it with a machinegun. I haven't played real-time much but I do remember having difficulty getting my soldiers to shoot at close range but hold fire at more than 5 squares because all they were doing was wasting ammo and destroying the building.

    The accuracy definitely needs a rework. One possibility could be to rescale it, such that accuracy works within a smaller range. Perhaps 0 accuracy stat could count as 50, and then the agent's accuracy could be divided by 4 and added to that, with a cap at 90 accuracy (160 accuracy stat). This would make brand new soldiers at least autofire in a realistic fashion even if they don't hit anything outside of 5 squares, and even rookies using aimed shots with laser sniper rifles would score hits a lot at good range. But no matter how far you train accuracy, you wouldn't get so high as to reliably hit with a toxigun snap shot from halfway across the map. Basically the range is too large. It goes from ridiculously and hilariously inaccurate to ridiculously perfect aim. Real people should have much better starting accuracy and much worse final accuracy.
     
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  18. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    Suggestions to fire modes were submitted by bobucles here and a bit by me here.
     
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  19. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Another way to "reduce the power" of toxiguns is increasing human menace. If angry organizations (and cult of sirius) were more aggresive and/or you must face "brainsucked" security guards in a Alien inspeccion, you can't rely at 100% in your toxiguns (because they are very poor VS armor)
     
  20. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Grimagor is correct. Brainsucked guards would add an excellent angle to mitigate the power of the Toxigun. It's a pity you never see it happen in game. How many guards should be captured "off screen" and how many should happen inside the mission itself? The former will always add a difficulty layer while the latter gives XCOM some chance of performing a rescue.

    You know what would be cool? What if killing those guards damaged your relations with corporations! You would be forced to use more risky stun tactics and can't just kill the bastards if you want to stay friends. Humans tend to be the weakest targets in Apoc and are PSI vulnerable so it adds two forms of new challenge. At least it would be appropriate for higher difficulties:
    Let's be honest here. How often have you ever used an aim setting that wasn't running/flying with autoshot? Wild 45 degree misses are OKAY for using the absolute WORST aiming options in the game. The issue is that the aiming options are just awful and can not compare to a hail of dual wielded fire.

    Corporate mechanics are partially to blame here. Business bonuses were never fleshed out, so there's no reason for XCOM to be friends with 90% of the city. There's no reason to use precision attack, because razing half of the city with maximum firepower doesn't really hurt XCOM.
     
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