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Ideas for new research tree and hybrid weapons

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by Grimagor, Dec 30, 2014.

  1. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Greetings!

    This is an idea about creating a new research tree relative to weapons. The meaning of this idea is improve the "life" of "normal" weapons and raising the power of aliens weapons. It have a few basis:

    - Agents can't use aliens weapons: Maybe it have some DNA block or are the Micronoits who "run" the weapons (In those cases, "Brainsucked" Humans can use them freely)
    - The market price of aliens weapons are very low: similar to brainsucker launcher, its hurt X-com economy but is necesary if you can't use the weapons.

    The solution? Creating new research topics to "improve" the ammo of your weapons. In this way your workshop are more usefull (instead of only manufacture aircraft and toxiguns/ammo for the toxiguns you can create more things) because you can't rely only on looting the aliens.

    An idea of those topics:

    - Experimental weaponry (after the first encounter versus aliens): this allow to create "anti-alien" ammo, who inflict more damage (but is less efective VS armored oponents), for the Lawpistol and Machinegun (and Autocannon maybe?). During the first week your enginers can manufacture more than biotransport modules! ;D
    - Disruptive ammo (analizing the disrupt gun): this allow to create "disruptive clips" who impove the dmg stats of the Laser Rifle and Plasma Pistol, both could inflict disruptive damage (who can be very efective VS aliens) and make both weapons (especially the Laser rifle) usefull during more weeks.
    - Improved explosives (analizing the boomeroid and vortex mines): this allow to create a better explosive ammo for the autocannon and an improved version of megapol grenades, marsec proximity mines and high explosives.
    - Dimension Destabilizer (analizing all others weapons mencioned and devastator cannon): this allow to create your own hybrid weapon, much better than anything (but you must manufacture).
    - Dimension missiles (analizing the dimension Missile launcher): this allow to create dimension missiles for the Marsec Heavy and Mini launcher.

    I really love all the stuff you have in X-com Apoc for the starting and they became obsolet in few days :-\ this is normal in Enemy Unknow and TFTD but I think this should be different in this game.
    Suggestion? did you find interesting the idea? I have some ideas for the others alien's artifacts (shields, teleporters and cloacks) too :D
     
  2. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    There are some cool ideas here. Alien types don't "level up" in the same way that was present in previous XCOMs. In UFO there were sectoids and their stats were terrible, but they got replaced with floaters and mutons and ethereals as time went on. In Apoc you start with Arthropods, and you fight Arthropods until the very end. That lack of alien advancement means that XCOM weapons don't have to progress much either. The starting machine gun is going to be just as lethal to start as it is going to be in the endgame.

    While the alien types and stats remain mostly static, they gain huge leaps in lethality and defense with their items. Brainsuckers give way to pistols, rifles, grenades and eventually launchers. Defenses get boosted with shields and cloaking. Teleporters just... totally break everything.

    Can XCOM survive without ever touching an alien weapon? Of course. Can they manage without ever touching an alien grenade or shield? That's a lot more difficult to manage. But these powerups can be molded into various upgrades as the need arises. Grimagor points out some key powerups in the form of upgrading the sniper rifle and human launchers.

    It is a lot of work to discover what XCOM needs and what it can live without. It is also a problem to give even more QP topics when they are overloaded for much of the game. But it might be cool
     
  3. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    In my first post I remember an idea of upgrading the aliens with improved version of spitters and multiworms (the sabercat could be a modified version of multiworm, faster, stronger and can release hiperworms when dies) and "elite" version of Arthropods ands Skeletoids.
    Denying the use of aliens artifacts allow to upgrade without fear any alien artifact, because X-com can't use it against they. In xenonauts Humans can't use aliens weapons and personally it was a good idea because you can't upgrade your soldiers by loot and the enemy can deploy a large kind of deadly weapons.
    In X-com and TFTD, you can use one of the best weapons (Heavy Plasma/Sonic Cannon) during the first month!!!

    And about the "overtopics" in QP, a solution could be lowering the research time of some aliens artifacts :D
     
  4. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Another option is to push some tech over to the Bio labs. While it's true that the Bio guys peak out very early, they also burn through their topics very early. Many alien trinkets clearly have an organic element to them, so it would be fitting to use both lab types to the fullest.
    What artifacts should XCOM be allowed, and which ones should they be denied? This is a very important question as each answer will add or remove something at XCOM's disposal.

    The brainsucker launcher and entropy launcher are both clearly useless to XCOM. The latter might have some use for disabling human opponents.

    The disruptor guns can be replaced with the two disabled XCOM guns (the big green one to replace the pistol, the destabilizer to replace the rifle). This makes it FAR more difficult to equip powerful replacement weapons.

    Alien grenades are more of a sidegrade because their awkward size still leaves room for standard grenades. Boomeroids have unique hunting power, while vortex mines uniquely destroy alien reinforcement pads.

    The dimension launcher is a slight upgrade over the marsec heavy launcher (mostly you get more ammo). XCOM doesn't really need it. A research topic could make stronger heavy launcher missiles instead.

    Shields and cloaks and teleporters are all unique tools that add to the game. Shields are too easy to get with Toxiguns, but change that and they'll be pretty difficult to loot which is good. Cloaks protect your guys from ambushes but aren't really required. Teles are stupid imba and don't even behave the way the UFOpaedia says they should.
     
  5. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Personally? IMO none artifact
    X-com must create their own technology but more important they must "upgrade it"

    More ideas:

    Instead of biotrans and explorer, maybe X-com can developt a especial hybrid engine who allow some craft (like Valkyrie and Hawk) to travel though dimesional gates.
    Cloaker devices allow to create a improved version of motion detector, more accurate with more are that can dot aliens and detect even cloacker units.
     
  6. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    If you have no alien artifacts available, then XCOM is going to need a LOT of extra items and research! That's a lot of effort to remove what we already have just to add similar stuff back in.

    I like the idea of disabling only the alien disruptor gun/rifle. The main reason is because replacements already kind of exist with the beta green gun and the dimension destabilizer. Shields are tough to harvest when you discount the Toxigun, and every other item has its own form of tradeoff or limited supply. Disabling the dimension launcher is another choice if the heavy launcher gets some sort of buff.

    What sort of vehicle weapons should be cut out? IMO I think the air game already works pretty well. There are always things that can be added of course, but removing alien ship cannons will ruin the point of XCOM hybrid craft.
     
  7. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered

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    I was thinking of something similar: X-Com can't use the alien weapons at all but can reverse-engineer them to make something working on the same principles.

    A further exploration of this could involve letting the X-Com-produced craft fit alien weapons, but you could research reverse-engineered alien tech craft weapons that you can fit to conventional craft from the market. You could make a 1x3 disruptor beam that can be fit to hoverbikes and hovercars, for instance.
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    You mean the lineage plasma cannon? Seriously, that thing is pretty buff, it's even stronger than the light disruptor. Actually the Rendor Plasma gun matches the damage but has a superior fire rate. Imagine that.
     
  9. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    Reaver's idead isn't bad, maybe a 1x3 slot doesn't fix but... a 1x4 slot?
    You must recognise, we need to do something to make Light Disruption useful and allow it for the ground craft didn't work (as you see in your experiments), maybe a 1x4 slot could be the solution.

    [quote author=bobucles]
    There are always things that can be added of course, but removing alien ship cannons will ruin the point of XCOM hybrid craft.
    [/quote]

    I was thinking in a solution during this weekend (because that's totally right) and I have to recognise, removing aliens cannons is a bad idea.

    [quote author=bobucles]
    I like the idea of disabling only the alien disruptor gun/rifle. The main reason is because replacements already kind of exist with the beta green gun and the dimension destabilizer
    [/quote]

    The "green gun" code name was Dimension Force Field and looks like it was a Item, not a weapon.
    If we create a special ammo for the plasma gun and laser rifle, I think we only need the dimension destabilizer.

    [quote author=bobucles]
    If you have no alien artifacts available, then XCOM is going to need a LOT of extra items and research! That's a lot of effort to remove what we already have just to add similar stuff back in.
    [/quote]

    The removal propose was to give an advantge to the aliens and we can always reduce some research's time. But it's true that maybe X-com don't need a lot of items. The special ammo I think it's cool and easy to mod, the dimension destabilizer is easier because it's inside the game, maybe the idea of improved explosives dosen't mach :p
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    Don't forget a lot of XCOM fun is that you steal alien tech and make it your own. Denying use of alien weapons is more of an optional difficulty boost.
    The main problem is that Light Disruptors have AWFUL range. 150M is less than 10 tiles, and that's not including diagonals or altitude.

    ufopaedia.org/index.php?title=Vehicle_Weapons_(Apocalypse)

    In fact, many ground weapons have horrendous range. Ground cannons have less range than air weapons, and ground missiles have less range than air missiles. That sounds like a very obvious thing to play around with.

    Ground vehicles are also super slow so some speed mods are worth an experiment. Apoc hard codes all super light vehicles (<350) to have +4 speed, which isn't much to work with. The "Power" rating also appears to be useless, because acceleration seems to happen per frame. The difference between 1 and 6 acceleration is less than half a second of value and top speed seems to be the only metric that matters. Yes an Air Hawk can fly with the tiny SD standard, that 1000 power means nothing for its 5K weight.
     
  11. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    This is true in UFO Defense and TFTD, were you have lame weapons. But in Apoc you have laser and plasma weapons, "power" armors, stun weapons,... Humankind survive TWO aliens invasion and their technology should be very powerful (but I miss Gauss Weapons :'( ). Apoc "break" the normal "rules" in X-com Games (creating bases and radars, run interceptors, terror misions,...) what's the problem in changing the "use aliens weapons" topic?
     
  12. bobucles

    bobucles Registered

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    In TFTD, yeah. That game is just pure nightmare mode. But UFO gives you HI-EX and Rocket Launchers, which are both boss weapons. Thanks to the big unit glitch you can destroy most targets in one rocket. Targets who do not die are almost always wounded, which reduces accuracy. It also generates smoke, which can deny reaction fire entirely. Rocket squads steamroll through UFO and are only halted somewhat by alien psionics.

    TFTD doesn't let you use torpedo launchers on land. Many enemies also have absurd armor and explosive resist, while alien weapons are miles beyond anything you start with. Overall TFTD is nearly impossible without teching up.

    There's nothing explicitly wrong with it. In fact it's highly recommended for playing the game in a challenge mode. But teching up and getting better stuff is also fun. It would be a drag to play through the entirety of Apoc with only the starting gear and never changing things up, wouldn't it?

    Most new gear in Apoc introduces a new challenge or style of play. Any time you pull an option out you're removing a way to play. Only the disruptor guns and Toxigun really act as direct upgrades to existing weapons. It's not as big a deal to nerf or replace them with alternatives.
     
  13. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered

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    How exactly is this new style of play? Because disruption shields only support more reckless actions, the same as teleporters (you can teleport you super agent with 100 TU to point blank and wipe every alien in one turn with a toxigun).
     
  14. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator

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    Play in real-time and we'll talk :p

    As for the preventing X-Com from using alien weapons directly, normally I'm strongly against it, since it's illogical - breaking any safety measures is a matter of engineering hours, nothing more. In this case however I think it can work using the applied phlebotinum of micronoid aggregate, so I don't really mind.
     

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