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Idea to spice up the alien dimension (for a mod)

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by The Reaver of Darkness, Oct 29, 2014.

  1. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    The current alien dimension is a bit boring, as you go up against each building in a series circuit. There seem to be progressively negative effects against the aliens as you destroy their buildings, but that could be in my imagination.

    I was thinking it would be neat if when you first enter the alien dimension, you find the buildings hooked up together by a network of tubes instead of a series. You would need to fly the dimension probe near each building for a few seconds to collect data on it, and then take the data back home for research. You could choose which buildings to research and assault first, and each building destroyed would have a negative impact on the aliens:

    Incubator: destroying this building will greatly reduce the number of available eggs and cause the aliens to deposit smaller numbers of eggs or multiworms in the city on incursions for the next several days until they recover their numbers somewhat.

    Spawning Chamber: destroying this building will prevent all future production of eggs and cause the aliens to subsist entirely on existing eggs until they eventually run out. If both this and the incubator are destroyed, the aliens will have only a small number of eggs, but will pool them together and make a massive last ditch assault on your city, dropping all of their remaining eggs into random nearby buildings and fleeing again to their dimension. After that, no eggs or multiworms will be seen for the rest of the game.

    Food Chamber: destroying this building will have no effect for at least a week, but eventually the aliens will become more sluggish and their strength and health values will gradually reduce. If the game drags on long enough, some species will begin to starve and die.

    Megapod Chamber: while this building is functional, the aliens will (once in a great while) produce a seed to replace a destroyed building, and this seed will grow for several days, eventually becoming a smaller, less effective replacement for the building. You can ignore it if you are assaulting rapidly, but might want to take it out early if your playstyle is slower.

    Sleeping Chamber: destroying this building will start to affect the aliens within days, reducing their time units and reactions, making them sluggish. The effect will stack on heavily for a while, with a diminishing return.

    Organic Factory: destroying this building will cause the aliens to be unable to generate new craft, though they will have some stored underground still. They will also be unable to generate new equipment. If you play long enough with this building taken down but with the Spawning Chamber intact, the aliens will run out of equipment as they lose it to your dimension and will eventually stop making anthropods and skeletoids altogether, as there will be nothing to equip them with. Alternatively, they may assault your dimension and attempt to steal supplies from an arms factory or other building that could carry equipment. If they are successful, you may see anthropods and skeletoids equipped with Earth-based equipment.

    Soon after the destruction of this building, the aliens will mount a retaliatory assault on your dimension, pooling all of their remaining craft in one giant fleet which will fire at buildings randomly and attempt to raze the city to the ground. They will remain in the city until destroyed or until a large amount of damage has been inflicted. If they know where X-Com bases are, they will consider those prime targets for attack.

    Alien Farm: destroying this will have no impact on the game, but we can believe that over the next few years it would prevent any surviving aliens from re-colonizing their planet as its environment shifts toward something uninhabitable for them.

    Control Chamber: destroying this building will instantly cause all aliens other than psimorphs and micronoids to act feral and erratically. The aliens will be unable to coordinate attacks, and groups of them will spread out randomly. After this, the aliens may at times assault your base directly with psimorphs and micronoids, but these attacks will be few and far between as the aliens don't have many of these and do not wish to deplete their numbers.

    Maintenance Factory: destroying this building will cause all other buildings to have reduced functionality. New building seeds, in addition to having reduced functionality, will also be unable to grow any further. Destroying either the Megapod Chamber or the Maintenance Factory will prevent the aliens from being able to repair their city. Furthermore, once this building is destroyed, all of the connecting tubes around the alien city will fall down.

    Dimension Gate Generator: this is the final building and cannot be destroyed or assaulted until all other buildings are eradicated. If you try to attack it early, you'll be given a message that you have to make sure the aliens have no way to regroup for a future assault before you cut them (and you) off.

    =========================================

    Another thing I Was thinking of is that you ought to be able to attack the buildings from the air. Ultimately, a ground assault should be required to finish them off, but an air assault can provide early damage both to reduce the building's functionality and to make a ground assault easier. Of course they are heavily armored, and only the most expensive weapons and ammunition can even scratch them. Combined with their mountain of HP, it might just be easier to demolish them from the ground, but that's up to the player to decide. Also, knocking it down from the air will reduce the number of aliens on site when you later perform a ground assault and will also reduce the number of items to bring home.

    Overall, I just think it would be a lot more fun to pick and choose how you want to dismantle the alien city, and would help to add more variety to each replay.
     
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  2. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    Destroying the spawning chamber would pretty much end the game! Actually I think that's already the case. I do know that one of the buildings governs UFO production. It miiiight be the spawning chamber (I don't think it's the UFO factory, oddly enough). Anyway when the correct structure is destroyed aliens will stop making UFOs.

    Aside from the mystery structure and the dimension gates, most of the other structures seem to be nothing but flavor.
     
  3. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    It seemed like it was the factory in my last two games. I read the flavor text and thought 'oh so now they can't make ships?' and they didn't make any more.
     
  4. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    I thought the same thing too, but I'm fairly sure you have to kill the queen, not the UFO factory.

    Either way it's pretty simple to test. New UFOs are built at the end of the week, so just wait a week after smashing a structure. This is pretty much mandatory as the alien dimension is a weekly event(?) and you have to return every time to research the new building.
     
  5. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    Perhaps I'll test it later. (I'm feeling lazy) :p

    But speaking of having to return to research the next alien building:

    I'm thinking in the above stated scenario, the Dimension Probe should be able to retrieve basic info on the whole city all at once so that you can select a destination from an array of options, but you should still have to go back and collect a full load of data on a structure and research that in order to gain entry. So when you first come back, you get all the names of the buildings. When you have scanned one building fully, the dimension probe's data banks fill up. You could scan more than one in a go by bringing more probes, or you can also come back to the alien dimension for more before the last research project is finished.
     
  6. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    The endgame stretch of Apocalypse is pretty boring. At this point you've already established complete dominance over the aliens and are rushing to win. However, winning means waiting every week for the next dimension event so you can hit one more building. Ugh.

    I think the alien structures should multi part missions. Rather than having access to every individual building, you are stuck in a situation where agents have to plow through 2 or more alien buildings to reach the next exit port. For example the order of missions could be 1/2; 3/4; 5/6/7; 8/9/10. I think queenspawn is 7 so the final tech would be ready for endgame. This cuts the 10 week minimum of finishing the game down to 4.

    Alien buildings are already shown to be connected to each other by "people tubes" so the possibility of a multi part mission isn't a huge stretch.

    The important thing is that with batch missions, you get rid of that awkward final stretch where the aliens are totally dead and can't do anything anymore. Apoc gets to end on a high note. Less importantly, XCOM fans totally love multi part missions! Those last missions are stupid easy with teleporters and maximum toxigun, so maybe a multi part mission will make things a bit more interesting. You'll have to budget ammo/grenades more carefully, you may suffer more injuries (especially if armor damage remains), and capturing the queen after a 3-parter will be a much larger test of skill than before. I can definitely assure you that after finishing the final mission my A team was ready for one or two more.

    The megapod chamber is the 9th building, right? The UFOpaedia entry states that aliens use this chamber to generate new alien structures. It says the aliens have a huge number of them already prepared, and implies they are meant to colonize earth. This establishes the possibility for "Alien bases" being established outside Megaprimus (or even worse, inside!). After killing the queenspawn, the aliens may have nothing left to do other than drop every last one of these pods on your precious home. Why fancy up the alien dimension, when you can bring it to earth!

    In truth I don't really like the idea of making the aliens weaker as you destroy their buildings. By the time XCOM sends its first probe to the alien dimension you are already most of the way through the game. Players are already playing with their best agents, are starting to fit everyone with the ultimate gear, and are building XCOM craft to directly fight the alien fleet. Making the endgame even easier is the LAST thing you should be doing!

    If anything, the aliens should be getting more aggressive, more reckless, and more destructive as you near the game's completion. As the aliens get more desperate, players should be feeling extra pressure to finish the game as quickly as possible. For example if we were to use multi-part missions against the alien dimension (1/2; 3/4; 5/6/7; 8/9/10) :

    - First probe: Alien Overspawn mission unlocked. UFOs will now aggressively engage XCOM craft instead of patrolling the alien dimension. Aliens may now perform 2 missions at the same time (one low tech and one high tech). This helps give players UFO type 3 (transporter) if they don't have it already, and gives more chances to safely eliminate UFOs from the alien dimension.

    - Building 2 destroyed: Aliens will frequently perform raids(I.E. terror missions) when landing, triggering an alert. They can target XCOM allies and will recklessly blow up everything they can. Failure to respond pisses off the company/senate for XCOM's failure. Alien UFOs will now patrol their weak points in the alien dimension. UFO production increased.

    - Building 4 destroyed: UFOs are weapons free and will always attack XCOM buildings or its allies whenever they can. Dropships will target XCOM bases, its allies, and will always raid for maximum damage. Aliens will perform 2 or more missions at the same time. Heavy UFOs will now guard the dimensional gates. Alien UFO production dramatically increased.

    - Building 7/queenie destroyed: UFOs are only manned by micronoids and dropships will now use micronoid rain 100% of the time (against XCOM bases this triggers a mass micronoid/brainsucker raid mission). At higher difficulties alien missions can include the most of the, if not the entire remaining alien armada. UFOs are enemies of everyone and will continue to raze the city at every possible opportunity. Alien UFO production at maximum and the alien dimension will always have some kind of UFO garrison when you enter. Constant probe-tier raids against Megaprimus. Optional: Alien structure pods get dropped, representing a huge hazard to Megaprimus or Earth in general.


    The idea with this progression is to put pressure on the most central points of XCOM. Aliens gain much more fleet power to match XCOM's huge fleet scaling late game. Aliens gain more ability to ruin whatever tense relations XCOM already has with Megaprimus, especially with causing large numbers of negative score events to ruin Senate funding **. Lastly, the final stretch of endless attacks, potential base building and micronoid rain practically sets a death timer to rush out the final mission. It's good to end things on a high note!

    **(No, losing the Senate is NOT an instant game over! It's okay to make the final weeks REALLY hard to keep the Senate. In truth the vanilla Senate literally runs out of money to give XCOM, so if the aliens ruin your relations with them by the endgame it's not a big deal.)
     
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  7. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    I like that a lot. The aliens are fighting a war of attrition and are going to peter out eventually, but I like to imagine their underground stocks are larger, and that after their dimension gets attacked they would start getting more aggressive for a while. I think if they are held at bay for long enough, they should run out of supplies (the game could track specific numbers of storage and replenishment) both for realism and to benefit players whose playstyle is to outlast the opponent. But the aliens should really crank up the heat against X-Com before they wimp out.



    I don't know which building is the Queen's. The online Apcalypse UFOPaedia simulator (http://ufopedia.csignal.org/apocapedia/) lists it as the second building. I listed the buildings in the order that site has them listed, and I don't remember if that's the order they appear but it sounds about right to me. I kind of remember discovering the Queenspawn appearing earlier than I had expected.

    I think it would be neat if each building destroyed gives the aliens some kind of disadvantage, but also results in retaliatory action which depletes alien supplies faster but can also make life difficult for X-Com. The aliens should begin attempting to plant secret megapods in the city after enough time has passed (around the same time as you find vortex mines perhaps), and those megapods should have a tiny chance of being detected every so often, so eventually you'll probably discover one or more but probably not all of them. If you are zealous enough with shooting the craft down, you might prevent the megapods from coming in entirely. When discovered, they should recognize that they have been discovered, and go active regardless of their current level of growth. A young pod would not do much but an older pod might even erupt right through a building and transform the lot into an alien facility.

    After you assault the megapod chamber, the aliens should launch three battleships from its remains which would make a beeline for the three dimensional portals, each picking a separate portal. If they make it into the city, they will travel around and drop up to ten megapods each into your city. Running the Megapod Chamber mission should also let you research a device to better detect megapods, which you could use by equipping it to a ship and having it patrol in various parts of the city. You can then try to hunt down all of the megapods around the city, but try not to let it distract you from the rest of your mission. If you hit them early on, they will be easy to take out. But wait too long and they will begin to sprout up through your buildings and transform the city into the new alien environment. It'd take several weeks for that to happen, but it also gives you something to do after closing the dimension gates.
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    But WHY? Apoc has a really really easy endgame as it is. After XCOM fleets grow to full strength you can storm the Alien Dimension and smash the entire alien UFO fleet. Their missions end once and for all, and the aliens get nothing to compensate. After clearing house XCOM has to wait out 10 of the most boring weeks ever to do their one mission per week in the alienscape. Granted the time does pass very quickly, but the reason time passes so quickly is because nothing happens. That's a bad thing and makes the endgame very disappointing.


    All of my suggestions are about improving the alien fleet to stay on par with XCOM's late game fleet, and giving the aliens a final chance to win. Bigger UFO missions and smarter dimension defenses mean a tougher fleet to stand against your own. More destructive behavior lets the aliens hurt both XCOM and Megaprimus. Higher production protects the aliens from getting wiped out too early (you can never wipe out UFO production if it's part of the final mission chain). Micronoid rain is a super weapon that can instantly take over an organization, completely surpassing your ground troops and acting like a "Death clock". All these methods increase pressure at a time where XCOM is at its strongest, and hopefully force your hand to win the game.

    Basically the angle I'm looking at, is to make the endgame feel more like the winning cinematic than the vanilla experience. Most of what I've suggested is simple adjustments that use existing vanilla mechanics (UFO production, simple AI, alien missions). More complex stuff like growing alien structures or modeling their supply chain simply isn't needed to accomplish this goal.

    The UFOpaedia lists Queenie as the 7th alien structure. You can also see that the aliens have some extremely pathetic UFO production for the late game. It definitely can not match XCOM in any way.
     
  9. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    After making changes to spice up the end-game, those disadvantages don't have to be debilitating to the aliens. When they start pulling all the stops, they will seem stronger than before, not weaker. Those disadvantages could be strategic blows that could make the difference between a moderately difficult end-game and an extremely difficult one.
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    I am totally against the idea of modifying alien attributes, even if it could be justified in universe. An Arthropod should stay an Arthropod the entire game. There is no need to change their consistency if you aren't going to make it totally obvious or essential, and there is absolutely no reason to make them weaker. The endgame sports XCOM's strongest possible ground troops and missions drift towards a very low difficulty. It's not a good time to be making ground missions easier.

    Most of my suggestions were related to the Alien's strategic stuff on the cityscape. But that's not a complete package. The aliens could be made more aggressive and have new options in the battlescape as well.

    For example after smashing building 2 the aliens could get more aggressive loadouts such as more entropy launchers, grenades, shields, and missile launchers (they could also get a modest boost in troop drop composition). After building 4 an infiltration drop might include megaspawn and psimorphs to support their razing strategy (you never actually see these guys in the city!**). After killing the queen they may be stuck with only simple creatures, like masses of micronoids and brainsuckers with a low number of remaining troops(or brainsucked rentacops). Such a composition could be the most deadly of all because your best troops also have the weakest psi defense.

    Most of these options are very simple to add. Defeating the alien dimension merely changes their equipment or how many aliens a UFO drops. AI can be modified to be more reckless and destructive towards everything. Nothing new is really being added. It's just vanilla tweaks to support a more dangerous endgame scenario.

    **Megaspawn and psimorphs are 2x2x2 and they can't fit inside every map type. Some research is required to see where they are appropriate. But it doesn't matter where megaspawn can fit if they blow everything up!
     
  11. borsek

    borsek Registered
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    Reducing the amount of alien dimension missions, even if you only make it one mission, would be enough. Instead of the ever-boring 10 missions, which become ultra-trivial once you get teleporter tech, you could make it up to 4 missions (and even that is a bit much).

    Honestly, whenever I played apoc, I just waited for my first two annihilators and their equipment to be built, waited until the next UFO incursion, killed the invaders, then invaded their dimension and wrecked all the UFOs in there, rinse and repeat every week while I finished all the research and slowly conquered buildings.

    The endgame feels boring because it IS boring. It's too long, that's all. It would be much better if the fluff would simply state destroying the dimension gates blew up the entire alien planet, and you'd hop in, do that and win the game. No point in making a prolonged tortured death of the aliens.

    On that note, it would make sense if you got access to various deadlier weapons like alien gas earlier in the game, about the time you get toxin b, or as a step between B and C. That way everything would escalate until you quickly finished it off, and the endgame would be weeks 5-6 instead of 5-15.
     
  12. jgatkinsn

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    I like the idea of making the aliens tougher and ramp up near the end game. I had the idea of the aliens get smarter and more targeted in raiding your base to cut down your manufacturing supply chain. For instance, when they raid the base, they now focus on key areas to destroy first like workshops and stores and craft in repair bay/tubes (or wipe out other supply centers like Marsec or Megapol). They come in waves on the base raids, and maybe the waves grow in number the more buildings you take out. Maybe they arrive in a completely cloaked ship that can't be detected while flying, but you're only alert is the dimension gates cycling with nothing spotted.
     
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  13. ninothree

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    Perhaps your task in the alien dimension shouldn't be so simple as "go to building, do mission, leave". Just as when the aliens visit Earth they have some ships fighting the defences, some causing damage and others dropping ground troops, maybe xcom's attack in the alien's dimension should be similar. You send a couple of bombers to smash the alien's airbase - so they can't launch more ships - or maybe a squadron of fighters to take out an anti-aircraft gun. Then you can send in your troop transport to carry out the building-mission. There could be several stages to each encounter in the alien dimension, mixing recon, dog fights, bombing runs, surveillance (with some kind of stealth mechanic), asset capture (e.g. steal some mineral from their mines). It'd make it all feel a little more like a strategic assault rather than a sequence of very similar building-missions.
     
  14. JonnyH

    JonnyH Well-Known Member Official Developer Administrator
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    I know what you mean - I found the 'endgame' to be a massive letdown - the 'peak' seems to be taking air superiority in the alien dimension and then assaulting the first building. Then it just becomes 'same again' as you coat the map with toxigun ammo.

    Perhaps stage the alien dimension missions so you can realistically get your agents to the first few buildings without wiping out the 'larger' UFOs? Or some kind of limited range turrets or other static defence around later buildings that require something more than 'mopping up' the UFOs?

    Perhaps even extend the alien dimension missions out into the midgame? Like they don't get the high-tier UFOs until you have started them (so you can't research the top-end craft either), and when they do they 'start' with a large population so you can't just rush the rest of the buildings?

    Perhaps a non-linear building progression would be interesting too - each 'choice' having a specific benefit/downside - like the aliens get a bonus/better equipment/super units or something, so you have the choice of which 'benefit' you have to allow the aliens for future missions and which you want to block
     
  15. Huaptlo

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    Well, there is always the option that was originally planned for the game of having multiple alien dimensions. Maybe you have to take out certain building or several to get access to another dimension, or having to take out certain building in a another dimension to get access to the next building etc.

    I have always been an advocate for choices for the player. Linear progression is usually boring.
     
  16. ninothree

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    There is a fairly standard pattern in xcom games, much like most RPGs, once you have high level gear then difficulty goes way down, i.e. rinsing with avengers and toxiguns. So, to follow on from the last 2 posts, maybe have the first alien dimension be just an outpost with weaker aliens using medium grade technology. But you can choose to jump to the alien's main base first as a kind of challenge that would up the difficulty, so you go into the final battle with your soldiers still a little green and not using top tier weapons.

    I imagine that everyone is on board with the idea of multiple alien dimensions - obviously sequencing them linearly wouldn't be a real alteration to the game, it'd just be the backdrop changing every few missions. Maybe it'd be possible to have a complex interaction of the different dimensions. You have to go back and forth between them all and take buildings down in a particular sequence to achieve the right (or wrong) effects.
     
  17. Voiddweller

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    Anyone actually played beta version of apocalypse? There were ever-growing alien dimension, with multiple ship-growth structures. Every time you enter, you had to fight huge fleets, and blow up as many alien structures as you can, because if not, all will grow back and you'll have to start over.

    It was nice to find some unorthodox tactics, like landing your craft near buildings, so aliens cannot attack and your ships can regain shields. I used transport armed with plasma point defense in manual fire mode, and retaliator for long range support. Building an overwhelming to fight several battleships with a lot escorts wasn't an option, so guerilla tactics was more effective.

    To "spice up" alien dimension you just have to add some more goals than just destruction, like saving sectoid captives, or some other potential ally. Or set up observation outpost and do intel missions. Or lure alien empire from our dimension to fight against micronoid colective.
    There can be factions within collective itself!

    Alien dimension can be potentially used to jump to a distant imperial, or other hostile/friendly alien holdings, to expand apocalypse to what it supposed to be.

    Also there can be multiple end-game goals, and maybe one of them is about to ally with micronoids against the empire, or some other threat.
     
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  18. ninothree

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    That beta version sounds interesting. As far as I can remember, whenever I went to the alien dimension I just ran straight for the appropriate building without even needing to engage the alien ships. Kinda boring.

    I think the many goals thing is a good way to go. There are already loads of factions on the aliens side so there is something to work with there in breaking them apart. Though there are also a bunch of human organisations. Saving sectoids makes friends with the Mutant Alliance - maybe there are other opportunities: like getting alien weapons tech for Marsec, energy sources for Solmine or even drugs for the gangs (there wasn't mention of alien drugs in the UFOpaedia, I took liberties with that one). It could be fun to see more humans than just xcom on the other side. It'd make a lot of sense if the Cult tried to cross over.
     
  19. Voiddweller

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    It can be hard to find it nowdays. There were also an "instant action" tactical mode, where you were able to play as aliens, but also a lot of bugs.

    Exactly! Pirates, smugglers and mercenaries on space lines to Mars and beyond :) There is also a snakemen mercenaries, can be some alien remnants from second alien war, and much more.
     
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  20. Kammerer

    Kammerer Administrator Administrator Translator/Writer
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    Well, as it turned out it's not that difficult to find the beta :). I managed to do that but I think I can give the link only through the PM since its publication in the thread can be considered as piracy. If anyone's interested please send me a PM.
     
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