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Cityscape weapons balance

Discussion in 'Game Mods' started by The Reaver of Darkness, Nov 23, 2014.

  1. The Reaver of Darkness

    The Reaver of Darkness Registered
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    I was thinking of leaving Justice missiles with the damage they have and allowing them to fit up to 3 missiles per launcher. That right there would pretty much save them (along with increasing the number of missiles on the market) because while they would have very low total damage, they would deal it quickly and would easily pierce the heaviest armor.

    For Retribution missiles I was thinking just make them a lot more powerful but leave them single-shot. I like your idea of city damage. Perhaps the Retribution missiles could deal very heavy damage to a target but have a large blast radius which could damage the city. You could use it against high-flying alien craft to minimize city damage, or use it to quickly take down a ship that is attacking the city already and potentially cause less damage than you prevent. It would also be a good way to level a building quickly if you're really mad at some corp. And if you are skilled/lucky enough, you might even get a chance to take out multiple small craft with one missile.

    Finally, they need some sort of navigation system that will make them fly around buildings. Their long range isn't really an advantage because if you fire the missiles at that range, you're pretty much guaranteed to hit a building.
     
  2. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    Wow, how did this topic get off track? Oh well, it's not like there's much more to say about stuns other than if you agree or disagree.

    You mean for the missile? But that isn't possible using their default agility. Big missiles aren't MEANT to be attacking low fast small targets roaming around the city. They excel against slow high altitude large targets, and that's okay.

    You can make the big missiles smarter by not allowing them to shoot until the player gives an attack command. This lets players put their ships in position and avoid premature firing. But ultimately, the job of landing the missile is best left to player choice. If they have a straight shot at a big target at high altitude, do it. If they don't, they only risk pissing off Megaprimus.

    Apoc has an excellent number of options to deal with all of the small UFOs. Where it lacks are options to take down BIG UFOs. That's partially a deliberate thing to force players to tech up to alien guns. But mostly, it's because the big conventional guns are pathetic.

    I don't like that. Three missiles will blatantly clash with the UFOpaedia entry, which clearly shows a single gigantic missile for the launcher. It is plenty possible to make that single missile have a big enough impact to make it worthy against the game's UFOs.

    With the suggested damage (150 Jus) you get a 3x damage bonus, just the same as equipping 3 missiles. However if you include big UFO armor it's closer to a 4x damage increase. Increasing the Retribution to 250 damage is nearly a 5x increase after armor. The following number of hits to take down UFOs (no shields) is as follows:
    Code:
    Jus Ret UFO
    1   1  Probe
    1   1  Scout
    2   2  Transporter
    3   2  Fast-Attack Ship
    3   2  Destroyer
    5   3  Assault Ship
    5   3  Bomber
    4   2  Escort Ship
    12  7  Battleship
    19  11  Mothership
    Woo! Those big missiles would certainly be OP if they ever hit any small ships! It's a good thing they don't stand a chance in hell of coming close.

    As a side bonus it is possible to completely destroy the smaller UFOs (IF you can hit) and refuse a crash landing. That's a pretty damn cool gift (or curse!) to the players. Big missiles will gain synergy with the Stasis Bomb Launcher in late game, holding the target perfectly still for a direct hit every time. Smart missiles are simply not required since the issue is already solved in vanilla.

    I'm toying with the idea of giving big missiles a unique ability to link up if they're placed into oversize bays. For example the Hawk's frontal bay would load two Justice missiles and the Annihilator's 3x4 bays would hold 3 Rets. This may be the only way to make the Annihilator's 3x4 bays useful without allowing OP options to slip through. If ground vehicles could hold weapons then the Tank would could load up with 4 retribution missiles! That's a lot of damage, maybe not as much as other tank guns but still.

    I absolutely agree. It would be great for some weapons to deal splash damage, especially against structures. The Retribution missile is the #1 choice for the job (Justice missiles are like 5x cheaper to spam so it'd be bad for them). Unfortunately, area damage does not exist in the cityscape so it would be an entirely new thing for the game.
     
  3. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered
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    Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    Calling for a overbikenerf! ;D
    This time I think Solarius is right, is very lame seeing a horde of flying sidecar motorcycle doing a better job than a Big craft ALWAYS (obviously VS small UFO should be better the Hoverbike but VS big Craft? Really?)
     
  4. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    How many times do I have to hammer this through? IT'S. NOT. THE BIKES! Big craft suck because big craft are 10 times over priced for their combat role. They simply are not combat craft! Big craft are important because their crew capacity is 100% required to assault crashed UFOs. That places them clearly in the role of transport. Transports only provide a minor boost to combat power, but that's okay. They do enough to support the XCOM cause.

    With the exception of transports, everything else is fairly priced against hoverbikes. However Apoc suffers from an absolutely horrendous aiming formula. Because of it, bikes can dodge 95% of gunfire because no one ever shoots at where the bikes will be. Fix that and bikes are in for a world of hurt.
     
  5. Grimagor

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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    So Valkyrie and Hawk must be cheaper, right? It's work for me ;)
    Sorry if you angered about de OverPowerbike comment, that was only a joke :-[ But maybe the problem are the weapons space slot (there are only one 1x4 weapon and it's a Laser one :p )
     
  6. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    The big ships are pretty crazily priced. In terms of raw combat stats they could stand to be 50% cheaper or more. Changing price is a double edged sword because XCOM starts with a Valkyrie and that's about half a week's worth of income when sold.

    The 1x4 weapons are lacking. The only other option is the Retaliator missile and it's just awful to work with. IT absolutely needs a buff. Don't fret about the heavy laser too much, because going from 12 to 16 damage is a pretty big deal. The most important UFOs have armor around the 8-12 range, which will dramatically negate the power of the small laser. The big laser can end up over twice as damaging by comparison.

    Armor values are not provided in the game UFOpaedia and are not something players are expected to know even after becoming familiar with Apoc. So the special relationship between weapons and armor is not something players should be expected to understand.

    Hmm. There IS an effective way to increase the firepower of larger vehicles without dramatically altering late game balance. The Laser Defense, Plasma Defense, and Plasma multi system are all weapons that the UFOpaedia shows as being used in the "equipment bay". Due to whatever reason this never happens in game, but it is possible in OpenApoc to allow these specialty weapons to fit into equipment slots. The extremely low damage of these weapons (8/12/14) will be unable to penetrate heavy UFO armor, but will provide an amazing barrage of fire that makes the ships look very impressive at least. The only downside is that defenses have extremely short range so you're placing the ships in BIG danger that they may not escape from.
     
  7. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    I can't see why we can't have a laser weapon for the bikes. It's not like it wouldn't fit (scaled down, of course).
     
  8. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    The reason is due to armor. Anything with less than 12 damage is basically totally defunct against the aliens. Even the 10 damage 40mm cannon is pretty much useless against the alien menace. Another laser can only be worse than an ammo weapon, so why bother?

    On the other hand such low damage weapons can still pose a threat against the more lightly armored vehicles of Megaprimus. You can have dozens of these guns shooting against the aliens and not get anywhere, but if they target XCOM ships...
     
  9. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Re: Citiyscape weapon balance 2

    If we have the projectile cannon (damage 10) and the Rendor (damage 20)why not a laser cannon with damage 15 or so - keeping with line with the general damage comparisons in X-Com? Oh wait, it would be better than the Bolter 4000 Laser Gun, which only has damage 12 but is significantly bigger. Hmm, I guess the damage/size ratio doesn't really make much sense in the game.

    Yeah, that's another thing. Pity we don't have mini-Overspawns running around the city to shoot at. :)
     
  10. bobucles

    bobucles Registered
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    I don't see any real point in trying to make the tiniest weapon type work in Apoc. I mean, it's the smallest and weakest slot. It's supposed to suck. There can be some use for light weapons, maybe. If there are more tiny UFOs to shoot at, then you obviously have more chances to use light weapons against them.

    Don't worry about nerfing something just because it's good at this moment. Focus on making more useful stuff to let big ships have their chance. For example maybe an ammo module could store extra missiles. A laser booster module could boost laser damage (with diminishing returns of course). A structural module could boost HP or armor. Those god awful point defense modules could perhaps finally be viable if they match the UFOpaedia picture by going into the equipment bay instead of taking up valuable weapon hard points.

    By using equipment slots to boost combat power, big ships gain something that smaller ships simply won't be able to use. You get the desired buff to big ships, without having to wreck around with swarm balance.
     
  11. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Good idea with the PD weapons occupying other slots. I agree with the post above.

    And I was merely complaining about weapon power not matching their sizes... :)
     
  12. Grimagor

    Grimagor Registered
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    Those are very good ideas! Totally agree ;D
    I like the idea of the "improved weapons module" so much!
     
  13. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    I just thought of a different kind of air warfare: psionics. Yes, it's actually canon, as evidenced in the X-Com: Interceptor game (which actually takes part at roughly the same time!): a craft weapon that allows to perform a psychic attack on another craft.

    Come on, wouldn't it be fun to see your Hawk turning around and firing on the nearest police car? :D
     
  14. bobucles

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    Aren't XCOM craft unmanned drones? It's going to be difficult to get psionic control over no mind. :)

    UFOs are gigantic living things, and not the single man fighter craft featured in interceptor. Capturing a little humanoid mind is pretty different from trying to seize control of a gigantic living ship.
     
  15. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Are they really? I can't remember nor find anything that would confirm this.

    Besides, it would mean we can't add pilots to hire and level up. :p

    Yes... But what if we had an entire facility full of psykers built in the city? :)

    Uh... nevermind. :D
     
  16. The Reaver of Darkness

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    I'm pretty sure they are. There are numerous UFOPaedia entries that discuss unmanned vehicles (look through the civilian vehicles) and one in particular (the taxi) which states that even though the vehicle is fully automated, they put a human "driver" in it to facilitate human interaction. Also you can fly the craft with no soldiers in them. It makes sense for them to be automated and in fact given the incredible advances to A.I. in their time, it would be fairly unreasonable to bother having human drivers in a delicate situation like combat. You want the best you can get and human drivers just suck compared to their A.I..
     
  17. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Okay, it all makes sense, though I wonder why they don't us AI for the starfighters. I mean, it would be even more sensible.
     
  18. bobucles

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    The AI entry is listed under the airtrans:
    http://ufopedia.csignal.org/apocapedia/Airtrans.html
    It is also very obvious that the dimension probe has no crew:
    http://ufopedia.csignal.org/apocapedia/Dimension%20Probe.html

    All vehicles have a passenger limit, but can have 0 passengers if you like. This is highly noticeable with the hoverbike (2 crew) and road bike (1 crew), which have a very unambiguous crew capacity but can still work with no one.

    Because flying fighter craft is cool! ;)

    Apocalypse takes place about 20 years after Interceptor. That's a long time in tech years.
     
  19. Solarius Scorch

    Solarius Scorch Call to Power modder Global Moderator
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    Oh, I am perfectly aware of civilian craft being controlled by AI. This is technology that is already available to us in late 2014, if not actually implemented. It's not that hard, relatively, to make automated vehicles that move along fixed lanes and interact with traffic signals.

    However, saying that the same goes for combat vehicles is in my opinion just an assumption. Combat requires vastly superior intelligence. (And I don't mean "combat" as blowing up civilian jeeps with rockets; modern drones would be virtually useless in actual war.) Especially if said combat is conducted over a heavily populated city.

    Make no mistake, I'm not saying that X-Com craft is certainly manned. I only mean that there is no solid evidence to the contrary (even considering androids of Megaprimus), and it's rather open for interpretation. I personally think that it would be more interesting to have human pilots (assisted by advanced avionics of course).

    As for the bike case, I've always assumed that if it isn't manned by X-Com agent(s), it's piloted by one of the nameless drivers that normally pilot all craft and are not visible in the game.
     
  20. Grimagor

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    Maybe a stronger version of the matrix defense system? (doing a better jamming?)
     

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